Seeking help about digitizing with Pro-Res HQ

M

maximgorky

New member
Hello. I'm a newbie on this board. And not very tech-savvy - so please forgive me any glaring stupidity!

I am a producer trying to coordinate some work to be done by two different editors. One who is going to digitize my video content. The other who will do the editing. Both are working on Macs with Final Cut. Both are on OS 10.5. Not sure exact versions of FCP. But both pretty recent I believe.

I have been advised that it would save digital space if instead of digitizing my content (currently SD on digi-beta) at "10 bit uncompressed" - we instead should digitize using "Pro-Res HQ".

I was informed that it would be virtually the same visual quality as "10 bit uncompressed" - but would use up much less space.

The issue is that the first editor - who will be digitizing - does not seem to be able to find the "Pro-Res HQ" setting in his FCP. And he has a recent version of FCP.

I had passed on the following info to him (that my second editor advised was all that was needed):

=============================================

Go to "Easy set-up"

On the drop-down menu select:

"Apple Pro-Res" or it may say "Apple Pro-Res HQ"

===============================================

After trying to do this - my first editor wrote back to me as follows:

===============================================

There must be some variation in Final Cut systems even from the
same time period, because in the Easy Set Up zone I can't find this setting.

The only ones that mention Apple also mention HDV.

When I tried the setting listed as:

HDV-Apple ProRes 422 1080p2p - and then tried to bring in video in that setting, it said "Unable to initialize HDV deck", as it was looking for an HDV player hooked up thru a Firewire cable. So I don't know what the answer is here.

============================================

Is this that my digitizing editor is looking in the wrong place for the "Pro-Res HQ" setting?

Could it be that he has a version of FCP that doesn't yet have it? (Though I was told that "Pro-Res HQ" has been around for the last 2-3 years - and the FCP being used is certainly that recent)

Or are we missing something more obvious?

All suggestions most welcome!

many thanks
 
You need FCP 6 to use ProRes. The current version is 6.0.6.

If I remember correctly, you don't see ProRes setups in the Easy Setups dialogue unless you created your own or they came with a capture card (for example BlackMagic or AJA). But you see specific ProRes settings in the Audio/Video Settings dialogue inside of FCP.

I'm guessing your editor has a capture card installed (to connect to the digibeta deck)? Depending on the card, he/she will be able to convert to ProRes through the card (using the easy setups that came with the card). If he/she doesn't have a capture card that supports ProRes then I believe the workflow would be to capture to an intermediate codec (possibly Uncompressed) from the digibeta deck and then converting to ProRes using Compressor.

If the editor doesn't see the ProRes settings in Audio/Video Settings, then he/she needs to copy them from "Final Cut Pro Additional Easy Setups" folder that is installed by in the same location as FCP (by default in Applications) to /Library/Application Support/Final Cut Pro System Support/Custom Settings.

Hope this helps (it's late, so I could be wrong)
 
Very belated response

Very belated response

Thank you so much for your response Coors. Most remiss of me not to have returned here to thank you. Please accept my apologies.

My editor was able to locate the setting as you described - but has encountered another issue which I wish to check.

He has been told that you cannot import directly from a source (eg a digi-beta deck) into FCP - using this setting. It can be used for storage and for exporting.

But he was told that if he wanted to import content from (say) a digi-beta - he would have to digitize it first at 10-bit uncompressed onto a hard drive. Then bring it into FCP. Convert it there to ProRes - then export it back to a drive.

That sounds crazy to me. Doubling (or certainly increasing) the amount of time of the whole process. But perhaps that IS the way it is done

So - please can you (Coors) or someone else - speak to this. ie - whether it is possible to digitize direct into FCP using ProRes as a setting. or whether it is a two-step process as my editor has been informed.

I await with interest!
 
Your editor has been misinformed.

You need to hire new editors. Ones that know what they are doing. Well, at least the digitizing editor. You can have one good purely creative editor as long as you have another editor...or assistant editor...who is there to deal with all the technical stuff. Thus far you don't have a qualified editor or assistant to help here.

You can indeed capture to ProRes with a capture card. Absolutely. I have done this with an AJA KOna card, and with a Matrox MXO2 card. And it is very possible with the Black-Magic design cards. First off you need to have FCP 6. Then you need a capture card, and the most current drivers for that card. Then, in the EASY SETUP list, there will be the option for ProRes NTSC..the SD version of the ProRes codec.

Now, bear in mind, this is not an OFFLINE EDITING codec. This will take up space. Not as much as Uncompressed 10-bit, but it isn't really meant for offline editing, unless you have a lot of space. I do happen to use the ProRes codec for creative offline editing, but we also have 14TB of drive space. There are offline quality codecs...like OFFLINE RT, even DV. And then you can online at the higher resolution later. We do that on another series we edit, and on our two hour specials.

Apple has workflow tips online...to help you out:

http://documentation.apple.com/en/finalcutstudio/workflows/

But that won't make your editors technical experts. I stand by my statement...you can keep the creative editor, but you need to hire another editor or assistant editor that knows all of this technical stuff. If you don't, then you will be in for tough times.
 
Thank you so much for your detailed response. The major difficulty is that this is a pro-bono project for a charity and I am dependent on the generosity of several folks. My creative/hands-on editor who will be working with the material is au fait with Pro-Res. He is in one end of the country. The person assisting us with the digitizing is a very nice, well-meaning but younger editor - who has FCP and is lending assistance by offering to digitize all our material. We were originally going to do it in 10-bit uncompressed - but then I was made aware that some of the other content that had already been provided to us had been digitized was in Pro-Res (a format I was unfamiliar with - but now have a rudimentary grasp on)

The young person who had offered to do the digitizing (on the other side of the country of course!) was not familiar with Pro-Res and initially didn't realize he had that setting. Once he'd located it - he then asked someone how to import using it - and was clearly given erroneous information. On charity projects one has to be appreciative of whatever help one can get.

So I have passed on the info about the cards to him. BTW - are such cards (and related software) expensive to purchase? Any suggestions the best place to purchase such a card? Do such cards come with whatever software is necessary to use them?

My understanding of the rhyme and reason for using Pro-Res is that gives a quality similar to 10-bit uncompressed - but eats up less digital space because of its compression. But since I'm evidently not that technically minded - it's possible that I've misunderstood that too! :smile:

Many thanks
 
Such cards range from $500 to $3500. There is the MXO 2 Mini that can capture Component video, but then it doesn't offer deck control and the all important timecode...not unless you get a separate USB controller cable. Since no one is technically minded, I'll skip that one.

There is the Decklink HD Extreme...$999.
There is the Matrox MXO2...$1599.
There is the AJA Kona LHi...$1599.

All offer all in one solutions...all come with software (but best to go online to get the latest drivers)...all can be found at www.bhphoto.com...or their respective sites. www.aja.com, www.decklink.com, www.matrox.com.

But I am worried. Even though this is pro-bono, the assistant sounds like he only has experience with firewire capture.
 
Thanks once more.

Those cards are a bit more expensive than I was expecting. In my blissful ignorance I was expecting that this would be an item in the low hundreds.

The editor offering to do the digitizing is accustomed to digitizing into his FCP/Mac set-up from a variety of sources - digi-beta, Beta SP, 3/4", 1". And for his own editing - he normally imports using a CDV/DVCPRO rate - which is all his own work calls for. But he has on occasion successfully imported at 10-bit uncompressed. I don't know if that means that all his "capturing" is done via Firewire. From what you write - it probably is.

Given the cost factor of the card - and his inexperience using such things - perhaps I should abandon the plan to digitize in Pro-Res format.

The initial reason for exploring the ProRes option was because I was about to purchase the G-Raid drives upon which to place the raw material (11 hours of 1" tape). And I was doing a crude ballpark calculation of how many drives I might need to house that amount of content - importing it all at 10-bit uncompressed. Which I assumed would be the optimum level. (The original material is nearly 25 years old and not HD level.)

I'd arrived at the point where I guessed it would be prudent to get two 1.5 terabyte drives when another pal suggested that if I put all the content into ProRes rather than 10-bit - it would save money for the charity. They would have the content at virtually the same quality - but eat up far less space. And thus save $230-$350 on a second hard drive. My thought had been nothing more than that.

Once the creative editor verified that - yes he could work with ProRes - I thought I was set. And I assumed (very wrongly I now see) that "ProRes" was a setting just like "DV/DVCPRO" or "10-bit". That my good Samaritan digitizer could simply opt to set his FCP to import at ProRes rather than 10 bit - by a click of the mouse - and bingo all done

It had not occurred to me - as it obviously should of - that there would need to be some equipment/software deployed in order for people to be able to use the miracle of ProRes.

Given the cost of cards - which is high for the charity - it seems as if there are two other choices.

Revert to digitizing in standard 10-bit. And spring for a second 1.5 TB drive to accommodate the content

or

(and this may not be possible and certainly not practical)

My local editor had been told that it WAS possible to convert content once inside FCP from 10-bit to ProRes. If that IS the case (and it is entirely possible that he was mis-informed or has mis-understood) - then he would bring the content in to FCP at 10-bit uncompressed. Then export it onto a hard drive converted (by FCP) into ProRes.

Which - assuming that that CAN be done without having a special card (which now sounds unlikely to me) - would double the amount of time he has to spend doing this. Albeit it's work in the background.

What would YOU do on this project - given that I am trying to save the charity from having to spend needless dollars?
 
To capture UNCOMPRESSED 10-bit, you need a capture card. So if this assistant is capturing to that format, then he must have a capture card. But if he doesn't have ProRes as a capture option, then he might not have FCP 6.

And be glad you are doing this on FCP...Avid Capture Cards start at $4000 and only go up...
 
Thanks

I have relayed this essential info. At the time when I was wondering whether the non-appearance of the ProRes choice in his FCP options was a matter of the person's FCP not being the latest version - I did check with him what version he had. I was told that one of his two Macs was on 6.0.3. But that another Mac - the one with which he digitizes from 1" - was still on FCP 5-something and had not yet been updated to FCP 6. I have now gone back to him to enquire which Mac - and therefore which version of FCP he has used to successfully digitize in 10-bit. Because according to what I have surmised from you - that must involve a capture card. I have also asked him to try and determine what capture card there is.

I am not sure if he will know where to look. Is the "capture card" something that is placed inside computers that have the FCP program? Or is there another piece of equipment that sits as an interface between the tape source (eg digibeta deck or 1" deck) and the computer - and the card goes in there?

You can tell how clueless I am about the technology!

BTW - assuming that there is a capture card of some ilk that has enabled him to capture at 10-bit - is that card likely to enable him to capture at ProRes - as long as that is placed in connection with the Mac that has FCP 6 rather than FCP5 ?

So many questions - so much to learn! It was all so much easier when copying things was just done by monks using parchment and quills...
 
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