Seeking audio advice for Brazilian Jiu Jitsu instructional series

el_lago

el_lago

Active member
Hello,

I'm going to be creating an instructional series of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu videos with my instructor and I'm trying to figure out the best plan of attack for the audio. A big part of this martial art is taking your opponent to the ground and employing chokes, arm locks, leg locks, etc. so I'm not quite sure how much of an option wireless lavs would be. I more than likely won't have access to a boom operator so I'd probably have to have a microphone set up on a stationary boom. I was looking into getting either an MKH-416 or MKH-60. After looking at the sample clip below, would that be too narrow of a pick up pattern? Maybe I could set up one of those mics on a boom and try to use a lav to try and "fill in the blanks"? For shots when my instructor is standing up and speaking to the camera I'll be doing boom operating for those shots.

Generally the people who buy Brazilian Jiu Jitsu instructional videos aren't too picky about sound quality. From what I've read on Internet forums and what I've discussed with people they're satisfied as long as they can clearly hear what the instructor is saying. Even though the bar isn't set too high for sound quality, I still want to get the best audio possible given the unfavorable circumstances.

Here is a sample clip from an instructional series. You'll notice that the instructor ends up speaking in several different directions and areas on the mat as he's explaining the move.

http://www.fightlife.com/images/clips/quarterguard.wmv

same clip as above in Quicktime format
http://www.fightlife.com/images/clips/quarterguard.mov


Below are a few links of short video clips of some people doing moves. The clips aren't from instructional videos, but just some casual video shot by a friend of mine.

http://grappletv.com/videos/cindyfirstmove.mpg

http://grappletv.com/videos/toro take down 1.mpg

http://grappletv.com/videos/toro knee on belly to knee bar 2.mpg


I'm looking to spend somewhere in the ballpark of $3,000 on audio equipment ($3,500 max). At this time I'm not looking for an external recorder, I'll be using my DVX for that.

Also, in the first clip there is a very noticeable echo when the instructor talks. I'm going to buy some moving blankets to put up so that I don't have the same problem. How many would you estimate that I would need gauging from the sample clip?

Any advice is appreciated. TIA for any help!
 
if the instructor will be with t shirt , place radio mike under the t shirt in the middle of the jiujitsu suit V , if he has hair on his chest ask him to shave or place additional t shirt without a color , place the mike directly on the first shirt to get less rustle .
you can use lectrossonics mm 200 transmitter which is very small and ruged , place it inside his underwear , dont worry this one is water proof:-)
place the boom over , but frankly when the guy with his face down you would not get allot , but its not bad to get the sound effectS of failings and sett-era .
if the place is big and the sound is bummy , try to bring 12x12 to decrease the space , put blankets on the opposite side of the frame AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE .
another trick you can do is to bring white balloons and stuff them with helium to make much better acoustic for your celling
 
Well the first trick to good audio is turning off cellphones :happy:

I did audio for a karate school video many years ago. It was a 3 camera shoot so I hung 3 hypers from ceiling, one on a boom, and put the instructor on a wireless. Was able to do the wireless since their moves were not not as intimate or on the ground. Didn't even need the wireless. If you are working a one camera shoot one hyper on a boom would work but you would need an operator. Without a operator, the multi hyper works quite well. Just rent the extra mics you will need for the day.

The moving blanket question would be determined by the size of your studio. A trick for large live environments I have yet to try is putting helium balloons all over your ceiling. Have heard tales of this being quite effective (and fun I would imagine) in breaking up your room.

Best
 
LOL

Oleg, have you tried the balloons technique? I have just heard of it from others but never tried. Will be interested in hearing more feedback on it.

Best
 
Oleg have been banned and now doing porno instruction video in the Gobi desert near Ulan Battor with ex party official wives and small local horses .

me - i did it twice , it worked quit well
 
ExileOnTheMainStreet said:
Oleg have been banned and now doing porno instruction video in the Gobi desert near Ulan Battor with ex party official wives and small local horses .

me - i did it twice , it worked quit well
Click to expand...

LMAO. Sorry to hear about oleg. What a waste of his talents to be doing porno :happy:

Cool about balloon technique. Can't wait for an opportunity to try out. Probably have a hard time selling the client on 50 helium balloons as an expendable expense.

Best
 
thats would call the secret life of Genghis Han - 7-1 soundtrack .


no that was much cheaper then doing acoustic celling - about 80 white balloons in one place with very high and round ceilings and about 40-50 in another big bomb sheather with betton walls . almost impossible to caver all with regular stuff .
 
Most martial arts studios are the boomiest places ever. You will need a combination of room treatment (as you've already surmised) and good sound acquisition in order to get usable audio.

The moving blankets should help considerably. I've never tried the balloon thing, but that sounds like a possibility.

Since they're not competing, but demonstrating, wireless could work too with just a little caution towards the gear.

I think the best choices (after treating the room as well as possible) would be:

1) Get a boom operator. Give them a hyper on the boom. Get in close.

2) See if you could get the wireless to work.

3) Shoot everything with the lens wide with a hyper on the cam (heresy, but just might work).

4) Last but not least, voiceover. Shoot the sequences without narration (just capturing nat sound) Have the instructor do VO later.

The most important thing (I've trained in martial arts for 20 years and have shot a few of these) is that the instructor realize that shooting a demo takes a lot more time than teaching a class. The instructor has to be willing to demo the same technique multiple times (so you can get different angles, CU's of critical areas, etc.) as well as at different speeds. And the video has to be done outside of class time. If they expect that you'll just come in and shoot some footage while they teach a class and turn it into a money making side venture, it ain't gonna fly.

Good luck!
 
Hey Exile,

that's a very unfair thing to say about Oleg since he's not able to defend himself. I don't think he'd appreciate your innacuracies. It's really a cheap shot. To set the record straight, the porno Oleg is doing is most certainly NOT instructional and is NOT in the Gobi Desert although it does involve horses. Oleg's porno production is being done in Tajekistan. I hope this clarifies things.
 
Thanks for the advice, everyone.

I'm going to talk to my instructor and see if he can offer to waive membership fees to one of the students in exchange for serving as a boom operator. I'll probably get either the MKH-416 or MKH-60 with a Rycote suspension setup and maybe a K-Tek Avalon aluminum pole.

I'll do some tests with the boom setup and if I'm not satisfied with the results I might expand my budget and invest extra money in a wireless system.

Well the first trick to good audio is turning off cellphones :happy:
Click to expand...

LOL Brazilian Jiu Jitsu instructors LOOOOVE their cell phones!
 
While I love my 416, it's not meant for indoor shots (especially with a lot of reflective surfaces!).

What you want is a hypercardiod microphone. A Schoeps is nice, but I would use my Senn ME-64 before I used a shotgun in this situation.
 
Joe Kras said:
While I love my 416, it's not meant for indoor shots (especially with a lot of reflective surfaces!).

What you want is a hypercardiod microphone. A Schoeps is nice, but I would use my Senn ME-64 before I used a shotgun in this situation.
Click to expand...

I'm kind of confused about what models are hypercardioid and supercardioid because I keep seeing the terms used interchangeably. Is the Schoeps you're referring to the MK-41? I see it listed as a supercardioid on Schoeps and B&H's websites but I also see on the DVFreelancer.com shotgun shootout that they call it a hyper.

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but judging from the first sample video clip would the MK-41 give me the reach I need? I listened to the samples of that mic and was really impressed with its sound.
 
One of my kids just deleted my response just before I hit send, so let me try this again...

Although there are indeed many different Schoeps capsules, the MK 41 mic capsule (with one of the CMC mic amps) is the usual "Schoeps" referred to when people are talking about capturing audio in interiors for video/film. Perhaps people will have to be a bit more specific now that Schoeps is producing a shotgun mic that will also find use capturing audio for video/film.

As to the hyper/super question, many people use the terms interchangeably. Others use a progression from omni -> cardioid -> supercardioid -> hypercardioid -> shotgun when referring to mics with progressively narrower pickup patterns.

As to whether the Schoeps will work in this situation,

1) if it's on a boom pole within 1.5-2.5 feet from the speaker's mouth, it will work great,
2) if it's on the cam within 2.5-3.5 feet from the speaker's mouth, it can produce quite acceptable audio. The farther you get from the speaker's mouth, the more important room treatment (to get rid of echoes) and eliminating sources of ambient sound becomes.
3) farther than about 3.5 feet, no mic will get you good sound in this room.

And you're probably aware, but different mics don't really have more "reach" (although most of us are guilty of using this term at many times). Different mics just have different pickup (and rejection) patterns. This effectively increases the so called "reach" of the mic, but you still have to turn up the volume in order to capture the desired sound. This means that any ambient sound/echoes that happen to be within the pickup zone will also be amplified. Thus minimizing distance from speaker's mouth to mic is the most important thing you can do to increase your chances of getting a good result.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.
 
Thanks for replying, Joe, especially for going through the trouble of re-typing it after your first got deleted. Also, thanks for the other helpful posts.

I'll definitely be going with the Schoeps now. When I initially was looking into mics that one sure grabbed my attention when I was listening to sample recordings. For some reason (like too little audio experience :undecided ) I thought I'd have to go with a shotgun.

My instructor and I are going to make the series in multiple languages and produce a promotional DVD so the MK-41 will be great for all the voice overs that we'll be doing.

BTW - Would it be fine going straight to my DVX, or should I have anything between the mic and my camera (besides the cable :laugh:)? The Schoeps has a pretty even response across the frequency range so, as far as 'coloring' the sound, maybe I should only worry about sweetening the audio in post?
 
Others may advise otherwise, but I'd say go straight from the mic to the DVX.

Adding a mixer (which would have a slightly better pre-amp than the DVX) would increase the quality a little. IMO, not enough in THIS situation to make it worth it.

Unless you have a dedicated audio guy to control the mixer, I think you're better off just running straight into the cam. Your effort is much better spent treating the room as well as possible, eliminating as much ambient noise as possible, and getting the mic as close as possible.

I recently acquired a separate mic pre-amp and am getting a mixer, so in a few weeks my opinion might change. But many people have made a lot of movies going straight into the cam and gotten good results.

Since you're going to dub it into multiple languages, I'd strongly consider recording only the ambient audio during the sessions, and laying in the voiceover afterwards in a much quieter place.
 
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