Welcome to the forum. I can add Crucial/Micron to the list of the "original players." However, even they are on record of using 3rd party memory chips and/or controllers (e.g., when they have supply issues and/or riding the spot market). Also, with regard to being something-proof, of course, some of it is a marketing talk. The rest is formal testing and qualification that these advertised properties are indeed real. I assure you that Panasonic won't simply say "Proof 5" because is sounds more professional. Same applies to a lot of professional grade gear. Take Western Digital RE-series hard drives. They are technically based on the consumer Caviar Black and, yet, are pimped as enterprise ready... mostly because they go through additional testing and qualification, have premium SLA/warranty, etc. The consumer equivalent might give you the same result, but it is often not guaranteed and, therefore, the professional crowd won't take the chances. It is also about managing risks. Bottom line is that Panasonic and other "professional" brands have a legitimate place in the market and their customer base.
SD card advice for AF100
- Thread starter Barry_Green
- Start date
GrumpyDiver
New member
I totally agree with your comments maxusa. The pro gear is more expensive due to the qualification and testing if receives. When it costs more to manufacture, the prices will reflect the additional costs the supplier bears. On the other hand, the profit margins on the "Pro" gear are also a lot higher too. I think that Samsung might be part of the Tier 1 list too.
I should have been a bit more clear; I was targeting the comments directed at the second and third tier suppliers that target the consumer markets. Getting a good / bad Patriot, Transcend , etc. card today is not a good indicator of future performance by products from these suppliers. That being said, manufacturing yields, especially in a mature process, often means that the "pro" and "consumer" versions could be identical parts, other than the labelling and packaging. There are just no guarantees of that.
Your comments on the Western Digital drive is an excellent example. Effectively the consumer and enterprise drives are identical from a mechanical standpoint. Testing will identify drives that are operating at the higher end of the design spec and these drives will be streamed into the enterprise product. Add the "soft" stuff with regards to a tighter SLA / warranty process, and voila, you have enterprise ready hardware that companies are willing to pay a premium for.
My own experience has been that electronic failures tend to occur early in the product life-cycle. If I plug a card into my computer and fully load up a few dozen times and it doesn't fail, I don't see electronic failures in the field either. If I treat the card well and keep it in the supplied case when it is not in the camera, rather than in my pocket, I don't see any mechanical failures in the plastic packaging material either.
As with many other things, it's all about risk management...
I should have been a bit more clear; I was targeting the comments directed at the second and third tier suppliers that target the consumer markets. Getting a good / bad Patriot, Transcend , etc. card today is not a good indicator of future performance by products from these suppliers. That being said, manufacturing yields, especially in a mature process, often means that the "pro" and "consumer" versions could be identical parts, other than the labelling and packaging. There are just no guarantees of that.
Your comments on the Western Digital drive is an excellent example. Effectively the consumer and enterprise drives are identical from a mechanical standpoint. Testing will identify drives that are operating at the higher end of the design spec and these drives will be streamed into the enterprise product. Add the "soft" stuff with regards to a tighter SLA / warranty process, and voila, you have enterprise ready hardware that companies are willing to pay a premium for.
My own experience has been that electronic failures tend to occur early in the product life-cycle. If I plug a card into my computer and fully load up a few dozen times and it doesn't fail, I don't see electronic failures in the field either. If I treat the card well and keep it in the supplied case when it is not in the camera, rather than in my pocket, I don't see any mechanical failures in the plastic packaging material either.
As with many other things, it's all about risk management...
Are the Lexar Professinal cards resin encapsulated like the Sandisk extreme and ATP Promax cards (And I think Panasonic Gold) are? I see Lexar Pro 32GB class 10's at futureshop here for $120 CAD. I can pay the same for ATP Promax but I have to have them shipped and the Lexar's are usually in stock local. I won't buy any card for pro video use any more that is not A) Reliable, B) resin encapsulated.
I have had 3 cards break apart on me with light use in camera.
I have had 3 cards break apart on me with light use in camera.
Lexar Pro 133x SDXC are not resin filled. Lexar is Micron's mostly professional brand, but still very affordable. The cards are well-made, tested, true to their performance claims, and come with limited lifetime warranty and dedicated support line. Pricing is one of the best for Class 10, 64GB for $121 ($1.89/GB) street and 128GB for $250 ($1.95/GB) street at the time of this writing. Attentive handling and a Pelican case can extend SD card life expectancy to acceptable levels. For epoxy and/or metal reinforced cards, expect to pay 2x-4x per GB. Hope this helps.
ATP Promax 32GB are around $120 on sale right now, plus of course shipping. I might have to get some more. Was hoping to find something local that wasn't as pricey as sandisk extreme.
(For anyone wondering, I have ordered from that company before and they are a reliable seller).
(For anyone wondering, I have ordered from that company before and they are a reliable seller).
Oliver Rush
New member
Why not just get PNY or Patriot Class 10 SDHC cards if you are going offbrand...? They are only around $50 each shipped for 32gb and are class 10. I use my Panny golds for all mission ciritical stuff for piece of mind, but for everyday recording, have not had issue with my PNY cards, and should be just as good as any offbrand card.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820178337
On a side note, I really wish panasonic still sold the old class 10 SDHC cards in addition to the new UHS one. I found them to be reliable, and swear by them for paid work, and I wish I could buy more of them. The UHS are a little more than I can justify for a SD card for the AF100, but the older pannys price at 16gb and 8gb was ok for me, and I really wanted more of the 16gb cards. (I dont like recording more than that much footage to a single card unless the situation calls for that long single takes...)
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Because they are not shock rated (resin encapsulated) like ATP Promax and Sandisk Extreme are. ATP aren't exactly "off brand". they are extremely high quality.
In my 13+ years of dealing with flash memory in computing, telecom, and imaging/video, I never ran across ATP Promax brand. These cards might be known in the specialty segment, but certainly not mainstream and, hence, not an easily recognizable brand in the U.S.
groveChuck
U-matic Member
Is there any probability formula for the more you use an SDHC card, the more likely an error/failure is,
vs
If you don't have an error/failure in the first X (10-20) uses, chances are greatly diminished you will have a problem later?
Any thoughts?
vs
If you don't have an error/failure in the first X (10-20) uses, chances are greatly diminished you will have a problem later?
Any thoughts?
I have seen many statistical studies of electronics parts and machinery that show much higher probability of failure (100~1000x) at the initial minutes/hours/days and then again approaching the end of useful life. Note that the end of life may be well beyond a warranty period. Basically, if a given device did not fail shortly after it is placed in service, then the chances are very high that it won't fail for a long while. Quality pros sometimes call this infant mortality. I imagine that NAND flash follows the same pattern. You may be able to find details in MTTF and similar studies or documentation. Many (smaller) vendors do not have their own labs and outsource MTTF/MTBF work.
ullanta
New member
I'd say that's not a good plan. Any card failures I have had have been apparent during testing; if they do well in an initial intensive test, they've been fine. The errors during that testing have not always been apparent when writing the cards. So I think you'd best at least test the cards. But for me, using known reliable cards trumps any benefit of using a new card for every project.
groveChuck
U-matic Member
That's what I thought was the case. I'll see if I can find some actual studies.
Does SDHC have a typical life span, like P2 does? Thanks!
Measurable main theoretical limit is the number of NAND block cell write cycles. It changes among flash manufacturers, technology, organization, controller algorythms, etc. Then we have factors that are difficult to predict such as storage and operating environment, human factor (handling), reenergizing frequency, etc. All things being equal, the P2 packaging is more durable (can withstand more insertions and rougher handling). A P2 card is a professionally packaged flash, whereas SD cards have light/consumer grade packaging where miniature size and affordability trumps many other requirements. Some SD card makers have ruggedized offerings such as sealed epoxy and/or reinforced casings. So a given SD card life span depends on usage and many other factors.
By the end of last decade, MLC NAND flash would typically sustain 5-10K write cycles. The latest MLC flash from Intel/Micron can hold up to 30K cycles. Over time, and with technological advances, flash becomes better, smaller, and cheaper. An old SD card, therefore, is unlikely to be able to sustain as many write cycles as a modern equivalent. Having said that, SD cards do require TLC (Pelican, anyone?), but the risks can be somewhat offset by following best practices and using professional name brands that typically carry lifetime warranty.
Hey just a quick question, is there any major difference between sdhc cards and sdhc uhs-1 cards except for price? Because I currently have the lexar sdhc 32gb cards, and was going to buy another but found the following uhs-1 for a much cheaper price! And seeing as from what I've heard the uhs-1 is better and faster, it just doesnt seem to make sense why its nearly half the price! Should I go for it or am i missing a trick? The card link is the following:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lexar-32GB-...OPLK/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1344682553&sr=8-3 and the normal one is :
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lexar-32GB-...ON82/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1344682553&sr=8-5
Both are class 10 and everything :S Thanks for any advice.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lexar-32GB-...OPLK/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1344682553&sr=8-3 and the normal one is :
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lexar-32GB-...ON82/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1344682553&sr=8-5
Both are class 10 and everything :S Thanks for any advice.
I had Sandisk Class 6 cards and Sandisk uhs-1 cards. The uhs-1 cards format in mere seconds in the AF100 where as my sandisk class 6 format in minutes -____- How fast do your lexar 32's format in? If it's minutes then yes you'll see a difference upgrading the cards, if not then you won't notice any difference in the AF100.
Awesome, so either way i might as well get the uhs-1 card, i cant believe its almost half the price! Are there any compatibility issues with it though, or should it work in most sd card holders on laptops etc? If so how do you find out if your sd card reader works for uhs1? (My sd card port doesnt mention uhs1)
Check Card message on Ag-af100
Check Card message on Ag-af100
Ok So I feel a bit stupid, especially having read the opening thread. But I think I might have bought a counterfeit or dud card as when I put it in my Panasonic Ag-Af100 it says check card and won't let me record. Is there something I am missing, or have I just bought a crappy card. I'm afraid it was off e-bay.... it did only cost me £25 (for 64gb).... and it's made by a brand I've never heard of Busbi, who I am now going to Google. Any help for this newcomer greatly appreciated.
Check Card message on Ag-af100
Ok So I feel a bit stupid, especially having read the opening thread. But I think I might have bought a counterfeit or dud card as when I put it in my Panasonic Ag-Af100 it says check card and won't let me record. Is there something I am missing, or have I just bought a crappy card. I'm afraid it was off e-bay.... it did only cost me £25 (for 64gb).... and it's made by a brand I've never heard of Busbi, who I am now going to Google. Any help for this newcomer greatly appreciated.