Scrims or ND ?

R

Robert Double

Active member
Hi,

I have a Britek G-300 light which I use with a softbox. I want to bring the light output down without using a dimmer. Doing a bit of research it seems I have a couple of options; scrims or ND gels. So I will be looking at mounting the gel's/scrims direct on the light with the softbox speedring attached.

However it has raised a couple of questions for me...

1. What is better scrims or ND gel in a gel frame? It seems BH sells a lot more scrims than ND gel?

2. I have measured the diameter of the G-300. The diameter from clip end is 5"7/8, and from clip lip its 5". Below is my ascii diagram. Hopefully my wonderful artwork helps explain :)


---- <<<<< 5" >>>>>> ----
| <<<<<<< 5"7/8 >>>>>>> |
-------- <<< >>> --------


The question is what size scrim/gel frame should I be using? I can not seem to find any scrims on BH in between the sizes of 5" & 5"7/8?

Cheers

Robert
 
Don't dim light intensity with ND gel. Use scrims or tough spun. If you can't find scrims, buy metal screen used for windows and cut it to size.
 
Scrims do seem to be far more prevalent and I know that you know your stuff Walter. But why are they better than ND gels?
 
I have never used ND gels to dim lights nor seen anyone else professionally do so unless we are working with big sources. ND gels waste too much light. They are best used for windows and such. Tough spun is made for reducing light levels on smaller fixtures as are screens.
 
Scrims are virtually infinitely reusable and have the advantage of not getting a hot spot in the middle of the light pattern. The only down side is they do get a little hot, so wear some gloves when you pull them out!
 
I've used in ND on light many times, though it's never my first option, it is an option - however, I only use then on outside on softboxes(chimeras) and only modest watt units. Also, never cut small gels and slide them into the scrim slots of the lights, on 400s or higher it will brun away the color or burn the actual gel because it's too close to the bulb.

scrims are the 1st choice and often I just use single or double flags on c-stands

1/2 scrims and flags are nice because you can maintain full light on a given area and cut others parts of it down, like as a white shirt on a character that is reading too hot. This is why I always have plenty of single and double flags handle tend to use them very often.
 
here's the ones that you probably want. Scrims for the Dedolight, they are 5.5" around, which is probably the closest you are going to get since you want the scrim to be a little bit smaller than the clip. I have the Britek 600 which is 6 7/8" from clip end to clip end and I use 6 5/8 scrims and they are fine. If you are unsure cut out a big of cardboard or posterboard to a 5 1/2" circle and drop it in the light (when it's turned off) and see if it covers up the whole light producing area.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...395&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation
 
Thanks everyone for the 101 on Scrims & ND.

For this particular problem looks like it will be some Scrims.

Thanks Fitz for the link to BH.

Robert
 
Scrim v.s. ND on lighting instruments

Scrim v.s. ND on lighting instruments

Interesting discussion about scrims vs nd on fixtures. Bill Klages, maybe the best television lighting director ever, never uses scrims. You can look it up.

Reason: He can often see the cross hatch pattern of the scrim projected onto what he is lighting. I have seen it also but I'm not the perfectionist that Klages obviously is.

So, if the fixture is flooded out with a clean beam such as a leko, fresnel or Dedo, the scrim can actually become a gobo. Give it a try sometime. Maybe with HD it's now more of an issue but I don't shoot HD so I wouldn't know.
 
The other good thing about scrims vs. ND gels is that scrims don't fade over time. You can pretty much use them forever.

I don't know about the whole cross hatch pattern though...Usually you place it so close to the light, making it so soft that you'd be hard pressed to see it, even if you were using a very hard instrument. I googled for a bit for what you were talking about, but couldn't quite find it. Does he have some examples of this?

I always bounce my lights or shoot them through some sort of diffusion anyways, so...Definitely still curious to see examples though.
 
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Generally, ND fades and discolors when subjected to a lot of heat. It's a better choice for things like windows.

You can use it on lights, especially with a layer of heat shield gel between it and the lamp, but this is an expendable cost. I'd put it out on the light's doors rather than in a gel ring.

If your light is built for scrims then this is the fastest way to work, as long as you keep a bag hanging with each light. A standard set per light is 1 single, 2 doubles, 1 half single, 1 half double. Each light gets this set and then you always know what's missing at the end of the day. The exception would be pars, which don't get the half scrims because they don't resolve.

A few lights can show the cross hatch of the scrims, especially if they're very hard (like a bare bulb), and especially if you're moving them like a follow spot. This goes away with a little softening. It's worthwhile to have some ND available if this becomes a problem, but it's usually not an issue. It might be more of a problem on a TV set where you're using a lot of the same types of stage lights.

My experience is more with location work so I don't use a lot of par cans, lekos, or scoops. I've never seen scrims for these, maybe there's a good reason for that.

Rob Mack
 
Bill Klages Uses ND

Bill Klages Uses ND

Walter_Graff said:
Don't dim light intensity with ND gel. Use scrims or tough spun. If you can't find scrims, buy metal screen used for windows and cut it to size.
Click to expand...

Walter, your posts are always spot-on and full of great information. Just an FYI, the legendary Bill Klages, (possibly the best television lighting designer ever), has stated that he uses only ND. According to Klages, under the right circumstances he can see the the pattern of the wire scrim projected onto a surface. I've never encountered this but I probably don't have eyes like he does.

It must be noted however that when I read the quote back in the 80's I believe, he was endorsing GAM products. Gam of course makes ND gel.
 
Whats up with Bill Klages? The most legendary television lighting designer ever? Something fishy is going on here...
 
Dale Pearce said:
Interesting discussion about scrims vs nd on fixtures. Bill Klages, maybe the best television lighting director ever, never uses scrims. You can look it up.

Reason: He can often see the cross hatch pattern of the scrim projected onto what he is lighting. I have seen it also but I'm not the perfectionist that Klages obviously is.

So, if the fixture is flooded out with a clean beam such as a leko, fresnel or Dedo, the scrim can actually become a gobo. Give it a try sometime. Maybe with HD it's now more of an issue but I don't shoot HD so I wouldn't know.
Click to expand...

A quick look at Bill Klage and he tends to use a lot of hard light. There's no diffusion, nothing. That's old TV (and sometimes movie) style. While some may approach lighting this way still, the general practice now is big diffused lighting. Soft boxes, 4x4 frames, even 12x12-20x20 silks. I prefer this lighting, and the original poster is using a soft box. Even if using more 'hard' lighting, I tend to always at least place something on the light to diffuse it a touch.

Scrims with diffusion is perfectly fine. Heck I was working with some spotlight lekos without diffusion the other day and we did notice a touch fo criss cross pattern when putting in a scrim, however it was so minimal and soft (despite using no diffusion) the DP didn't care. But with diffusion it's impossible to see this.

Scrims are easy and simple, and very reusable. I recommend them over ND. ND on a soft box is a big piece, and placing it within the box would be a pointless frustration. However if you have limiting lighting, and like to use powerful lights and stop them down for the scene, then I recommend getting a bit of ND on hand in case you can't fit in any more scrims. However like someone else said, you can always use something else to cut on light, more diffusion for example.
 
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