Screenwriting tip - talking heads

Blaine-

Agreed, that scene would never have been kept in the final cut let alone been allowed to have been shot in the first place. But I would say that it did a hell of job of introducing the tone and characters. You get all these tough cats talkin about Madonna and tipping and then...show them as hard SOB's, a lotta blood, and an excellent torture scene. I think that opening scene works on a few different levels. Maybe not propelling the story forward, but it serves a purpose and sets up a lot (irony, levity, character, etc).

I totally dig giving the finger to what you "should" do. Revolution, baby, revolution. If you can make it work, then go balls out cuz those are the filmmakers that inspire me. But again, I don't think this thread's intent was to say this is how you must write. Besties...wheeee!

By the by....I'm so stoked this has generated all this discussion. I wish this part of the forum was more active. Cheers pallys
 
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Sorry but I think Charli is flat out wrong. The scene from EB she describes is STILL a talking head scene. Shuffling a deck of cards changes it in no way since the physical act of shuffling a deck of cards does not advances the plot or develops the character. Now, if Julia Robert's character was a compulsive gambler who'd recently kicked the habit, then playing with the cards might mean that she'd fallen off the wagon.
also, i agree with others have said, talking head scenes should be avoided, but then again, there are flicks like 'my dinner with andre' or '12 angry men'. Like goldman says, noboby knows anything...
 
In fact Brian, I believe you are the one that is flat out wrong

Charli never says:

"...The physical act of shuffling a deck of cards does not advances the plot or develops the character."

Let's examine a scene from Erin Brockovich. Julia Roberts is in a scene with the
next door neighbor. They're just talking, but she's playing with a deck of cards.
She is engaged in an activity which makes her appear in "action." It's a simple
scene which flows rather smoothly.
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I think her point is a great one and something to think about. I'd say 'generally speaking' it should be followed. There are always exceptions of course, but we're not talking about the exceptions.
 
okay, looks like i did misrepresent her post. but her post does suggest a remedy for talking head scenes. superfluous, meaningless stage directions do not belong in screenplays. everything in screenplays should serve the story or character. she's talking about puffing up a narrative with filler. bad advice. let the directors direct and the actors act.
 
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Blaine said:
How about this for a great dialogue scene with talking heads that does NOTHING to propel the story forward; the Reservoir Dogs scene around the restaurant table. That was a great scene that did nothing to move the story forward. It was an incredible scene and could only have been done by someone directing his own movie.

I loved that scene and it would have been the first to go by conventional Hollywood.
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well, as far as i know that movie was made by miramax which is part of disney which is about as conventional as it gets.

and how can you possibly say only someone directing their own movie would do a scene like that? that makes no sense.

also, that was no throwaway scene. it certainly did serve the story because it told us they were planning a robbery, it also developed character it also established tone and was funny.
 
Sean - the scene you mentioned is a monologue. That's different. You will also
find a one page monologue in the beginning of the movie, "Swordfish." A
monologue is risky to do in screenwriting. I'd advice against it. You need that
right actor with that brilliant dialogue to pull it off.

The point of this thread is to make the filmmaker aware of when writing a scene,
to engage the character in an activity which brings some realism to the scene.

Now, to reveal something about the character in a menial activity: "Pretty Woman"
when Julia Roberts (yeah, using her again as an example) flossed her teeth. She
may have been a hooker, but she wasn't trash. That scene revealed that she
took care of herself despite her choice of career. It revealed character.

Now, not to say that each menial activity will reveal character. Making coffee is
making coffee. Sorting mail, throwing darts, grilling outdoors, etc. may not
necessarily reveal much about the character, other than engage them in
activity. Actors like "doing" something. It makes for a more interesting scene.

Cine has it spot on and understands what I am saying. Because you guys are
filmmakers, you leave much out of your script thinking to put it in later as you
produce your pictures. I am saying what Syd Field has said all along:

If it ain't on the page, it ain't on the stage.

At least, if anything, some of you are thinking about it. So maybe next time you
shoot a scene, you will think twice about the emptiness of the "Talking Heads."

Charli
 
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Charli said:
Sean - the scene you mentioned is a monologue. That's different. You will also
find a one page monologue in the beginning of the movie, "Swordfish." A
monologue is risky to do in screenwriting. I'd advice against it. You need that
right actor with that brilliant dialogue to pull it off.

The point of this thread is to make the filmmaker aware of when writing a scene,
to engage the character in an activity which brings some realism to the scene.

Now, to reveal something about the character in a menial activity: "Pretty Woman"
when Julia Roberts (yeah, using her again as an example) flossed her teeth. She
may have been a hooker, but she wasn't trash. That scene revealed that she
took care of herself despite her choice of career. It revealed character.

Now, not to say that each menial activity will reveal character. Making coffee is
making coffee. Sorting mail, throwing darts, grilling outdoors, etc. may not
necessarily reveal much about the character, other than engage them in
activity. Actors like "doing" something. It makes for a more interesting scene.

Cine has it spot on and understands what I am saying. Because you guys are
filmmakers, you leave much out of your script thinking to put it in later as you
produce your pictures. I am saying what Syd Field has said all along:

If it ain't on the page, it ain't on the stage.

At least, if anything, some of you are thinking about it. So maybe next time you
shoot a scene, you will think twice about the emptiness of the "Talking Heads."

Charli
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I'd like to suggest that before anyone takes charli's advice to heart that they try and find corroboration in one of the reputable screenwriting books. syd field, Mckee, seger. encouraging people to write superfluous stage directions is some of the worst advice i've ever seen here.

Now, before someone goes fishing at drew's scriptorama for a great script with superfluous stage directions, don't bother, you'll quickly find an example. And similarly, you can also find great scripts written in fonts other than 12 point courier. You'll also find lots of great scripts written in passive voice, scripts that don't follow 3 act structure, yeah yeah yeah. That's not the point, the point is there are guidelines for screenwriting and what Charli suggests ain't one of them and in fact contradicts one of the most fundamental of all rules: every line should either reveal character, or move the story, preferably both simultaneously.

Also, the line "If it ain't on the page it ain't on the stage" is taken out of context. A screenplay is a suggestion of a visual medium. That's all. Consider a little diddy called "Crouching tiger hidden dragon", remember the elaborate fight scenes? Here's what they looked like in the script: "They fight". Two words. They Fight. The amount of story information that production designers, Actors, dp's, directors, costumers, etc etc contribute to a feature film is staggering. Syd field is referring to the fundamental elements of character and story, those are the things a writer frames on his canvas--not every little detail of the set, the light, what the character is fidgeting with, or what is floating in the toilet bowl--UNLESS any of those things pertain to character or story.
 
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Brian - I am going to say we disagree here and that's fine. I think if you watch
television at all and watch a person slap cream cheese on a bagel, or pour
themselves a cup of coffee, you will find that they are engaging in everyday
life activities.

That in essence is what I am trying to say, don't forget the
realism of life by adding "action" to the character.

To suggest, however, that this is the "worse" advice that anyone has ever given
on these boards. Really, now, that's a bit harsh, even from the civility that I have
found on these boards.

Charli
 
darth-vader-carrot.jpg


Sorry, sorry, just trying to keep it light, er, and avoid actually being productive today. :)

I think this is a great discussion.

I'll go get some work done now.
 
Charli said:
Brian - I am going to say we disagree here and that's fine. I think if you watch
television at all and watch a person slap cream cheese on a bagel, or pour
themselves a cup of coffee, you will find that they are engaging in everyday
life activities.

That in essence is what I am trying to say, don't forget the
realism of life by adding "action" to the character.

To suggest, however, that this is the "worse" advice that anyone has ever given
on these boards. Really, now, that's a bit harsh, even from the civility that I have
found on these boards.

Charli
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what's so uncivil? I haven't attacked you persnoally, I'm taking exception to what I feel is bad advice that's potentially damaging to new writers. You're advising new writers to inject fat into their scripts when it serves absolutely no purpose and weakens what otherwise might be strong material. What you're suggesting may belong on the screen, but that doesn't mean it belongs in a script.
 
Here we go:

Read Charli's example, seriously. Again, menial activity is flossing, but it DOES contribute to character development. That one activity says a ton of information relatively quickly. Are you seriously calling that "injecting fat?" Huh, I thought it was just good writing.

You guys are using hyperbole to make points no one else is arguing. Should you include what's in the toilet? Uh, no. But then again, this thread was about not writing talking head scenes and not once was it suggested that one should write every single piece of information we see. Yes, if it's not in the script, it's not on the stage. That is true. But don't take that to mean you need to write a novel here...that aint what Charli's saying so don't frame it that way. Sheesh, we certainly are nit-picking here, aren't we?

So in crouching tiger the screenwriter writes "they fight." If you are a writer and you really don't care to have a voice in what that fight looks like, then hell, write that. If on the other hand, you want a say (like Stallone did in Rocky), you choreograph the scene more. Again, let's not be chomping at the bit to exaggerate what this means. You simply put all the information into the script that you deem important, reads well, sets the scene, moves story forward, makes it unique, contributes to your style, etc.

Finally, I don't think anyone is arguing whether or not to include "superfluous" stage direction or anything else. Anything that doesn't belong should probably be cut. The thing that's trippin everyone out is what is considered superfluous and what is not. At the end of the day, are you really gonna be happier to just see the slugline that we're at the breakfast table? For my part, I want to know that Junior is spelling four letter words with his Lucky Charms.
 
Yeah. I think people are just viewing under different intensity of the same light. Shouldnt use superflous words and explain every little detail of what a character is doing. General is good, saying a character "eats" is almost good enough, maybe he always eats triscuts, its a little character tiff, say he eats a triscut.

So yeah Cine explained it well better than I can basically relaying what he stated.
 
We had a discussion on screenwriting boards on how much to go into detail
when there is a fight scene. This depends on the story, the type of detail you
want to give your character. Let's say you have two people fighting, one is
more a kickboxer and one more a fist fighter. You can include some streamline
action to show (not tell) the manner in which they fight. If you write in your
script - John's a kickboxer, Tom's a street fighter; then you have broken the
rule: show, don't tell.

So writing fight scenes is in itself a discussion on "voice" and "style" of writing.
That's another thread, another time, more for those who want to sell their script
rather than to just produce their own stories.

My suggestion to add action was not to add filler as much as to remind you to
add life to your story. Every day we get up, shower (well, some of us take
showers every day - looking over at Silver, sniff, sniff), have breakfast, drive
our cars, chew on our pencils, etc. My suggestion is to include that every day
life into your talking head scenes to eliminate the staleness of the scene.

I understand how you want to add action only that will forward a story, I just
think you missed the point by looking at the spec on the frame and not
seeing the big picture.

I think the end goal on this site is to have a finished movie go wide - to be
distributed either in theaters or to video sales and rentals. The advice I have
given above, the intent, is that each scene will become more interesting.

A movie is nothing more than one interesting/uninteresting scene at a time.
Let's make them count by removing the Talking Heads.

I try not to write talking head scenes, because, I'm not really sure where I can rent two camels...

Charli
 
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CineMischief said:
Here we go:

Read Charli's example, seriously. Again, menial activity is flossing, but it DOES contribute to character development. That one activity says a ton of information relatively quickly. Are you seriously calling that "injecting fat?" Huh, I thought it was just good writing.


.
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Actually the example she used was Erin Brokovich playing with a deck of cards. It doesn't propel the story, it doesn't reveal character, it works on the screen but that doesn't mean it should be on the page. It's superfluous.

I'll throw in one caveat, lots of people here produce their own scripts, in that situation, you can put in anything you want in a script because it won't be scrutinized. If you produce your own script you can write it in purple ink in Ancient Aramaec. And if someone doesn't like you can tell them to buzz off.
 
Good thread! I agree with Charli on the talking head syndrome - but I am NOT a fan of Before Sunrise and Before Sunset! In those movies - they are both 'doing something' - yet, the dialogue bores the crap out of me!

So, I'll add: Have the character doing something that they would normally be doing while saying something that is believable for them to be saying!
 
Charli said:
We had a discussion on screenwriting boards on how much to go into detail
when there is a fight scene. This depends on the story, the type of detail you
want to give your character. Let's say you have two people fighting, one is
more a kickboxer and one more a fist fighter. You can include some streamline
action to show (not tell) the manner in which they fight. If you write in your
script - John's a kickboxer, Tom's a street fighter; then you have broken the
rule: show, don't tell.

Charli
Click to expand...


I hate that discussion. I always get into it with others as well. I think it's generally about knowing what's key in a fight and what's not.

The writer of Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon actually just writes "they fight, he wins", and that's it. He specifically thinks that it's for the fight director to decide how the fight plays out, as long as the victor is named.
 
Kholi - which is great, really, let them map out the fight scene. SPEC writing
however is different. You may want to show a little move here or there to
reveal the skill level of your character. I don't necessarily mean to
choreograph the entire sequence, but enough to show certain "abilities."

I wrote a spec script (which lacked internal struggle but was great on extrernal
struggle) in which I sketched a few fight scenes. I got brownie points from
a professional writer (who rewrote a few fight scenes for "Shanghai West") who
said the action was crisp and streamline. The scenes helped with the pacing
of the story and with the storytelling - key here.

It really depends on the story, the SPEC story, whether you want to write:
She fights, wins; or, She charges, leaps into an arial bike-peddaling kick,
hits John square in the chest. Game over.

Depends on voice, style, but most of all, the need of the SPEC script.

Charli
 
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