Saw an XDcam/XDcamHD demo... Not impressed

Great work, Nate!!! Could you post the link to that site please? Actually, 2,330,000 yen equals only $20,333.68 USD!!! $20K!! What'd I tell ya's all?!?!?!? Woo hoo! Yeehawwwwwww!!! $20K WITH glass, and I'm DONE!
 
evinsky said:
Nate, I disagree that the deck is not important. You could live without it for a while but if your working with this material constantly, loading, binning, online, offline, you need convienent access to your media.
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Wha? Working without a deck on the Sony would be exactly like working without a deck on the HVX. It's a one-time offload from the camera...from then on it's a computer-world. Nobody buying an HVX here is buying the P2 deck also.
 
Not exactly though, because you don't have to use the camera as a reader. You can pop the card in a P2 slot and be offloading while you're shooting on another card. With XDCAM, unless you have a deck you couldn't do that, you'd have to use the camera as a feeder, and XDCAM transfer rates are basically realtime so it'll take 45 minutes to transfer 45 minutes of footage.

Not that that's necessarily a massive difference, but it is a bit of a difference in workflow. With P2 any laptop or any Cardbus reader can serve as a "deck"; with XDCAM only the camera or a dedicated deck can read the media.
 
Barry_Green said:
Not that that's necessarily a massive difference, but it is a bit of a difference in workflow. With P2 any laptop or any Cardbus reader can serve as a "deck"; with XDCAM only the camera or a dedicated deck can read the media.
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All I'm saying is that there is a perfectly viable flow for cheapskates.

I think I'd consider purchasing this if it becomes likely that other people are going to jump on the bandwagon. I'm thinking here in Los Angeles, it's going to be a popular mid-line alternative.
 
The bonus of XDCAM is the built in archive of course. Also, isn't the disc just a Blu-ray disk in an enclosure like DVD-RAM? With DVD-RAM, you just push out the locking pin and remove the disc from the casing. If you could do that, you could read it in a cheapo computer Blu-Ray drive. Is that possible?
 
mmm said:
The bonus of XDCAM is the built in archive of course. Also, isn't the disc just a Blu-ray disk in an enclosure like DVD-RAM? With DVD-RAM, you just push out the locking pin and remove the disc from the casing. If you could do that, you could read it in a cheapo computer Blu-Ray drive. Is that possible?
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As far as I know, it is a variant of Blu-Ray (they call it "Professional Disc"), but just like the MXF wrapper issue, I don't think it plays well with other Blu-Ray devices. They've been very intent on making sure people don't call it a Blu-Ray camera.
 
NBCshooter said:
Great work, Nate!!! Could you post the link to that site please? Actually, 2,330,000 yen equals only $20,333.68 USD!!! $20K!! What'd I tell ya's all?!?!?!? Woo hoo! Yeehawwwwwww!!! $20K WITH glass, and I'm DONE!
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NBC, if you're willing to spend 20k, then why not spend just a few more and get the SDX900? What makes the 330 a better choice for you?
 
One factor that we're forgeting I think is the handable factor. A SDX900 is not Handable, is very large camera . Anyone knows something about Panasonic D5 camera? How is it large? And how much cost? It will be showed to Nab at April?
Barry you know any news about it?
 
Icarus2005 said:
NBC, if you're willing to spend 20k, then why not spend just a few more and get the SDX900? What makes the 330 a better choice for you?
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It's not a few more, it's a LOT more. A used SDX goes for about $22K. Then you still need glass. That puts the package at about $30K. No built-in color LCD, and it's only SD. If I were to stay SD, I could spend exactly HALF that, and get the DSR450 package for $14,999 including a 20:1 Fuji, bricks, charger, and a bag.
 
mmm said:
The bonus of XDCAM is the built in archive of course. Also, isn't the disc just a Blu-ray disk in an enclosure like DVD-RAM? With DVD-RAM, you just push out the locking pin and remove the disc from the casing. If you could do that, you could read it in a cheapo computer Blu-Ray drive. Is that possible?
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I was told at NAB2005 that XDCAM media is in NO WAY compatible with BluRay readers, and never will be.
 
My point is simply that I want a bankable difference in quality from the low range to the mid to the high. We all see it between the 1/3" and 2/3" cameras and the price bears out those advantages. But with options like the HVX and XL-H1 it becomes less economical to dump even $20K into this system. What is the real benefit from the extra expense, will you be able to sell producers and clients on the higher rental and support costs Vs. just going Cinealta/Varicam? I bet you I could shoot footage with the HVX and XDcamHD side by side and most of my producers would not say the difference was worth twice the price, but the 2/3" cams would be worth 3 times as much.

One other thing, those XDcam discs are $30 each and in the 35Mb mode the record 30 or so min. of HD. So about a $1 a min. A 320 GB HDD cost $120 that's
37 cents a min., almost a third the cost for storage, less in 720, and you could take that HDD, put it in an antistatic bag and stick it on a shelf just like a disk and it would last just as long. I know you could reuse the XDcam disks, like P2 but that's not the point, the point is to have an archive, and you and I both know how scetchy producers get when you say your recording over a used tape.

Sorry Sony, it's a good idea, at least you figured out people want 24P & variable frame rates. Too bad you won't sacrifice your high end and really bring out a Cinealta quality camera that records 4:2:2 in this price range. The XDcams are good, but not great and not so much better than the 1/3" cams (Especially the HVX) to warrant thier price. Hopefully Panasonic will step up to the plate and offer us a real option with the Varicam II, shall I dream...

2/3" F11 chips
P2 recording to 5 slots
Firewire out
HD-SDI out
1080 24P, 30P, 60I & 60P in the new 3:2:2 DVCPro HD SR format (so close to uncompressed it hurts)
720P Variable framerates (Of course)
Any flavor DV
Flip out 7" 800 line 16:9 monitor (I am dreaming here)
New Cinelike F curve with 10 stops of latitude.
$25,000 price tag.

Of course I don't expect this to all come true, but one can dream.
 
Evinsky:

Panasonic will offer that (most of that anyway), but my guess is that it will price out at $30K+ once you add glass. If for $20K, I get a professional body with a real lens, for me that's worth it. Hopefully, the F330 is a stop faster and quieter too. The operational benefits of a full-sized camera and lens is also an important deciding factor for me (believe me, I can NEVER seem to find that damned iris pot on the side of my DVX without looking! And yes, I know it's a bit bigger on the HVX).
 
Honestly NBC I think you have a very legitimate reason to want this camera, it's attributes compliment what you want to shoot. I just think for me and many others here those considerations are less of an issue than bang for buck.

I hope your right, I hope the 330 is a stop faster and 6db cleaner than an HVX, because then it gives us a distinct advantage and another tool to shoot with. You will have to try and get ahold of one and we can put them side by side and see for sure. My current observation though is probably 1/2 stop faster and 3-4db cleaner.
We'll have to wait and see.
 
NBC:

I'm in a similar dilemma... I'm waiting to see the new GV Infinity...

2/3" Chips
10bit 4:2:2 JPEG2000
GV Engineering - I know many don't realize how great GV gear is
On-Board Monitor
HD-SDI / AES / Analog IO / TC / Firewire / USB / 1gig Ethernet /
HDMI Monitor Out
10lbs + Lens
Remote control, data transfer over IP
14bit Camera Head - Lots of camera presets
Low cost media - I'm not a fan of Iomega in general... supports compact flash.
No variable frame rates... yet, maybe never?

I've used the LDK 6000 on corporate shows and if the GV Infinity is even close to this camera, I'm sold. I've looked at the 6000 projected on 40' screens using DP 35HD projectors for three weeks in Septemper, talk about NO noise. GV plans to add 1080/24p, I think they've figured out they might sell some cameras to the indy market. I've been told additional features will be announced at NAB. It will be 30K with packaged 18X glass.

It's more than you want to spend, but has many of the features you spec.
 
lightshow said:
I've been told additional features will be announced at NAB. It will be 30K with packaged 18X glass.
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Yup, $30K is too rich for my blood, especially, since for me, it's basically an expensive toy. Remember, I'm not "working" this camera, I'm buying it purely to shoot my short films (and hopefully a feature). For me, either the PDW-F330 at $20,330 (includes glass) or the DSR450 at $14,999 (including EVERYTHING) is about my limit. Also recall, that I just dumped $7K into a Steadicam Flyer too.
 
evinsky said:
I hope your right, I hope the 330 is a stop faster and 6db cleaner than an HVX, because then it gives us a distinct advantage and another tool to shoot with. You will have to try and get ahold of one and we can put them side by side and see for sure. My current observation though is probably 1/2 stop faster and 3-4db cleaner.
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No matter what I finally decide, I can't wait to do some comparisons with the HVX. After reading Barry's HVX SD thread, I'm even rethinking the PDW-F330. Because if I'm only going to SD DVD (for the time being, anyway), downrezing HD footage doesn't seem to be such an attractive option anymore, the the DSR450 may actually make more sense. I keep my standard DV workflow and save $5K by going that route.

Actually, I think a VERY interesting test would be to compare the DSR450 to the PDW-F330! Darn, I guess I'll have to wait until April to make these decisions anyway, since it never hurts to wait for the next year's NAB to find out what's what, especially when it's JUST around the corner.
 
evinsky said:
If you have $21K then what about a 450+ HVX?
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Yup, evinsky! That's ALSO an option! I've been toying with that idea as well! I would have to pop for the two 8GB card package, however, making the total $25K. But the neat thing about owning an HVX, is that I probably would be able to rent it as a package with my Steadicam Flyer to NBC for a pretty tidy sum. Because, all they'll hear is "HD" and "Steadicam," and then all I hear is $$$! See, "they" aren't very technical. They just think "HD" sounds like something really neat to have, and it WON'T cost them near as much as an F900 and a DIT!
 
Hmm...
Actually what I got out of the SD thread was the HVX was one heck of a good deal with the awesome DVCPRO50 codec.

The 450+HVX would definately be a good move. You could cover just about anything.
 
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