SAG vs. AFTRA

[Michele Seidman]

Life is full of contradictions. LOL But seriously, what I mean is that with non-union actors I may end up with good actors after diligent casting and LUCK and so I may end up making an artistically satisfying movie. Also there is little danger of getting black-balled by the unions.

Since I'm planning to shoot in North Carolina one day, I may end up using some of the actors you trained even

I didn't know you then, but my 35mm feature film BUTTERFLIES IN THE WIND premiered at the AVA GARDNER FILM FESTIVAL in 2007. I would have alerted you as you live in North Carolina. The movie actually played at the Ava Gardner Museum together with Hemingway's THE SUN ALSO RISES, and THE KILLERS, (both with Ava Gardner). That's why I have an Ava Gardner character in my new movie FELLINI DIRECTS AGAIN!

I love when a person can admit they contradict themselves because I think we all do from time to time...very human!

If you shoot in NC dag nab it...use me too!

Wish I had known you in 2007, would have given me reason to go up for that festival. I heard about it but I think it was right after I got injured and spent months with a frozen shoulder trying to get any doctor to listen (by the way...that took a year and 2 months and getting to Duke to prove my shoulder was a wreck).

It probably wasn't. A lawsuit is working its way through the system.

The word "scab" means different things to different people. Emotions run high amongst some (especially during labor unrest) and there are some Union members who do consider FiCore non-members to be "traitors" in a sense and would do whatever they could to not work with them, even though FiCore non-members do pay dues (though I am not actually sure whether they pay into the pension and health plans).

Ahhh...not surprised to hear the word law suit on that part!

For the record..FiCore pay in to EVERYTHING...but not the politics! The reduction is minimal.

Could be wrong here, but it's my understanding that if a show is SAG, a fi-core SAG ex-member is eligible to work on it and will receive the same terms as any other union member, meaning that the production is responsible for paying into the health & welfare plans.

Possible exception would be on the contracts that allow both union and non-union workers; on those shoots the fi-core member will probably not receive union-level wages nor will the production be obligated to pay into the pension & welfare funds for the non-union or fi-core workers.

Barry...from my understanding of the terms, you are very correct. The FiCore member is eligible and all the same rules apply to the production and deductions from the FiCore talents check.

The 2nd part you are correct too, accept that...if a FiCore member can wrangle a better deal than SAG rate, that is up to them to pull off....the pension and welfare point I am not sure of in detail...so I hesitate to articulate!

 

[Sumfun]

It would appear that SAG can discipline its membership for working on a nonunion production even in a right to work state.

Blaine,

Thank you for sending the links. The one from the National Right to Work group is especially helpful in explaining the laws.

In the Miley Cyrus article, I'm surprised to see the author claim that actors in studio productions must be SAG members. The studios may have contracts with SAG, but to exclude non-union actors is clearly against the law in RTW states. But as mentioned earlier, casting agents have their workarounds.

In a right-to-work state, no union membership is required to work on film productions, so a greater number of certain positions can be filled from outside of unions, unlike in Hollywood. However, right-to-work does not include actors for studio productions.

 

[Sumfun]

I am aware of the rules the Guild has and discipline they can carry out in a union state but they 'legally' cannot discipline in a RTW state if that actor/actress wants to pursue it in court because that discipline is in direct contradiction with Federal laws as they regard to RTW status.

Michele,

Can you please provide a source that supports your claim that unions cannot discipline their members in RTW states? Your previous references didn't really address this point. (Yes, you highlighted that "the union could potentially fine you", but to me that means that it is up to the union to determine what fine if any to levy against a member).

I'm no legal expert, but everything I've read leads me to believe otherwise. Even the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation seem to agree. http://www.nrtw.org/RDA.htm

Most employees do not realize that by joining a union, they are agreeing to be bound by the union's internal rules and regulations (which are the union's constitution and by-laws). And further, most employees do not realize that unions' internal rules and regulations often provide the unions with the power to: a) issue monetary fines against employees who do not "toe the union line," and b) sue those same employees in state court to collect those fines.

Here are the right to work laws from North Carolina, and I still can't find anything to support your position. http://www.nrtw.org/c/ncrtwlaw.htm

Of course, most people would want to avoid being disciplined by the union, but in order to do so legally, you have to resign the union first or show that you were forced to join. But as Ryan mentioned above, even if you resign and claim financial core, the union can still harass you in many ways.

 

[Michele Seidman]

Sumfun

If I was a lawyer and knew how to find the case law that set the standards...I would. In the mean time...I am going to have more surgery and really cannot spend the time it would take to get you that information.

Besides...some people here (not calling out anyone) think I am against the unions and they are not aware I have helped hundreds of actors get in SAG, and helped numerous others get on the path for DGA, plenty in to IATSE and Teamsters.

So, I am going to drop out of this discussion because people have gotten the wrong idea and I am NOT a lawyer and only quoting what lawyers have told me. I simply live in an RTW state where the actors average pay is far below the national average of $5,000 and I just don't like seeing people starve.

Michele

 

[Sumfun]

Michele,

Thank you for your reply. I just wanted to understand the laws better, and I think this thread has been very helpful. The issue of unions disciplining their members is really not all that important in the overall picture, so it's okay if you can't find any case law. Your posts have been helpful, nonetheless, and I am grateful for your participation.

Good luck with your surgery.

 

[Sumfun]

Thanks Ryan. It's ironic that in Scofield, the union actually fined some members for doing work over a production ceiling.

 

[Olf fat actoria]

Fi-core

Fi-core

If you go Fi-core with SAG. Do you do the same with AFTRA? Can you be Aftra but Fi-core with SAG?

If it's a stupid question please forgive me.

 

[uglysexy]

Great Explanation Barry. That really covers it.

 

[otter1]

Setting the Record Straight

Setting the Record Straight

The following is WRONG....

A few Financial Core Facts for review:


Well Kept Sectret"
http://www.corlessproductions.com/financial_core.htm

[FONT=book antiqua,times new roman,times]Financial Core is a well kept secret in the industry. A SAG/AFTRA actor or any other union member for that manner may choose to go Financial Core for several reasons. One of them is to be able to work for less than union scale, or on non-union projects for deferred pay. Another reason is to work for higher than union scale and to be able to negotiate any salary they are able to. The benefit is that a Fi-Core actor has more choices.[/FONT]

Well known FiCore Member: [FONT=book antiqua,times new roman,times]Charleton Heston - Former SAG President and Financial Core Actor.

So you can't vote but you CAN hold an office!

[/FONT]"Financial Core is an individual liberty issue protected by the U.S. Supreme Court."

Also note SAGs wording:
Of course, the decision to resign is wholly yours. As a nonmember in a Right to Work state, you have the right to cut off all payments to the union, and you will not be subject to union rules and internal discipline. For example, nonmembers are not subject to union rules against working during a strike. If you are a union member, and you work during a strike, the union could potentially fine you and collect that fine in state court.

They say potentially for a reason...

[FONT=arial, verdana, sans-serif]

Sorry...just had to make sure the facts are all out there.

I swear I am pro-union...but I also and pro-working and making more than poverty level wages.
[/FONT]

This information is highly misleading at best. At worst it is union busting
Michele Seidman, I assume is finacial core status at SAG. If that's true, she's not a member of the Screen Actors Guild. She works non union.

This is a choice, with which I vehemently disagree.

Not so, in the case of Mr. Heston. Charlton Heston was always a member of the Screen Actors Guild.

If you want the facts go to SAG:

http://www.sag.org/charlton-heston-was-always-a-member-screen-actors-guild

 

[Michele Seidman]

Someone has posted false or misleading info: The facts as stated in the link provided by otter1.

In 1991, he declared financial core with Actors Equity over a disputed hiring activity, but he never declared financial core with Screen Actors Guild and remained a member in good standing until his death.

And on my status...you are wrong!

the facts still remain that MOST actors don't make enough money on SAG work to pay rent. SAG is not a Union...they are a Guild...hence Screen Actors Guild..not SAU.

I AM pro-union but I am also pro-work and paying bills. I am also tired of being attacked for giving the other side of the story that you and others don't seem to want anyone to know!

Now, with work drying up..leading actors who have millions in the bank are taking even smaller gigs and leaving even more actors who are not rich in the dust bin!

 

[Michele Seidman]

Of course, if you are FiCore, there's a good chance your Union will call you a scab, and very possibly send out a widely circulated press release naming you by name and telling other members to keep you at "arm's length".

If any union sends out information warning people to stay away from someone it falls under Federal Law and could be the basis of a lawsuit under the Federal Restriction of Trade. Most actors don't have enough money to fight.
_______________

and Otter1...you did your own bit of misleading people by posting the words 'This is Wrong' to my post. 1 fact was wrong and I have no problem admitting my own mistake...the rest was accurate. You willing to admit you were wrong doing that as a 'blanket' to my entire post?

I am exhausted by people who think it is ok to attack...mislead...and do so under an assumed name where they never have to face the repercussion.

I have cried over these stupid attacks because I have been dealing with major medical issues and yet still sit here trying to help others. I try to be positive and do some good and get attacked for it. But you and people like you are why I hardly post anymore.

By now I am certain that all the unions involved with actors have me on a 'Black List' because you and others like you keep taking my posts out of context as me being against the unions when I am not. McCarthy'ism at it's finest!

My saving grace is that I don't need to be famous. I love being in this field of work and hope to do it until I die. But I am tired of nameless people trampling on truth and extolling the virtues of something that also has a negative side as if that did not exist!

You help no one by giving them ONLY the facts you want them to hear! Everything good has a bad too...everything. That IS life. At least I am trying to get all the facts out so people can make up their own minds without being given rhetoric.

How many people have you helped join as full members of SAG Mr otter1? Me? More than I can count.

MAJOR NOTE:If I lived in a Union state I would join as a full member but as long as I live in a state where there is too little 'union' work to pay the rent...I would rather survive, eat and have a safe roof over my head then sacrifice my ability to make a living at the work I love.