SAG Experimental and Ultra Low Budget Agreements?

K

Kholi

Section Moderator
Can someone please give me a really basic rundown of costs, etc? I keep reading different info and hearing different info. I'd like to know what the Experimental and Low Budgets are about.

Thanks.
 
I don't think many people are doing the experimental agreement anymore. SAG finally got it together enough to come up with the short-film agreements, since the experimental was previously the only option for short films even though it wasn't that well suited for it, IMO.

Unfortunately, SAG is still behind the times (again, IMO) and after trying really hard to use their short film agreement last year, I finally gave up. TOOOO many faxes of the same paperwork over and over. TOOOO many phone calls answering the same questions to different people and that was all just so I could actually get the paperwork that they wanted me to agree to. They seriously seem to be using a fax and office oriented business model that went away in the early 1990s. Having a fill-in pdf form that you could email them would really go a long way. Why can't they have a single person to deal with instead of me having to deal with one person, than have all my stuff bumped to somebody's assistant, and then eventually moved to somebody else in Florida seems ridiculous.. Particularly since they didn't seem to even have the ability to share information from one SAG person to the next.

Okay, now I'm just ranting and not answering your question

At some point, I moved forward with my production without SAG because they made it far too difficult. I applaud them from moving away from the experimental agreement and towards their more suitable short film agreement, but they still have a long way to go. The times that I've successfully done this with SAG have been times that I have somebody else (a full time producer) dealing with them.

With last year's project, they eventually sent me most of the paperwork for the agreement. Even though it seems like they want to hide some of the details until you talk to them, I'll see if I can dig it up and share some info. There is info on sagindie.org, but I don't think you get all the actual agreement info until after you talk to them.
 
Hmm. Maybe things have improved over the last year. Here's a link to the short film agreement from sagindie: http://www.sagindie.org/docs/sag-short-film-agreement2008.pdf

I swear that when I did this last year, I filled out info from sagindie.org but then was eventually sent 3 or 4 ADDITIONAL things to fill out, agree to and sign. THere were definitely mutliple email attachements and multiple faxes going on after I had originally downloaded whatever sagindie had provided. But that pdf linked above seems to sum up most of the details about payment, meals, turnaround and all that stuff.
 
Blegh. Ultra Low Budget Contract is good, but still too much to deal with. I might just count myself out of SAG, the hassle could be too crippling.
 
We did the shorts agreement for Cold Calls I don't think it was that much to deal with. The basics are $100 dollars a day differed if you sell it or get distro. Plus you make a payment to their pension fund based on the regular scale rate I think. So if the regular scale rate is $700 / day you have to pay an additional $70. I think.

There's a SAG bowling party at tribeca, and I'm going to ask questions there because Cold Calls is about to sell. I've heard from some people that you have to renegotiate the pay if you sell or get distro, but that doesn't make sense to me - why have a differed rate at all pending sale or distro if you are just going to have to renegotiate? why not just have a contract that says renegotiation upon sale or distro? I think the person that told me the renegitiation thing was mistaken and thinking of old SAG horror stories.
 
I heard the same thing, Jack. That you have to go to the next contract up if you sell or get a distribution deal. And you may have to pay fees just to upgrade the contract.

Ick
 
Yeah but it seems so cut and dry that that's not the case. And again, why go through this contract at all, why not have one that says sales or distro = renegotiation.

Seems like:
Festivals, free screenings for industry = Free
Sell it = $100/day

Entire contract:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=2&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sagindie.org%2Fdocs%2Fsag-short-film-agreement2005wm.pdf&ei=xyvqSdz6I42kNfysrfMF&usg=AFQjCNFEZqi7feoEtwOtqFuaS_fbv8icQw

These seem to be the only two areas to address this in the contract:
sag shorts agreement said:
5. Exhibition Rights
The Short Film may be exhibited without compensation to the professional performers:
A) At film festivals;

B) Before the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences for possible Award consideration. (Note: In this regard, the Producer will be permitted, notwithstanding the exclusion in section 4(B) above, to exhibit the Short Film for one (1) week in a paying movie house to qualify for such consideration.);

C) To non-paying, non-public, established entertainment industry members to showcase the talent of the producer, director, writer, performers or other members of the production or post- production team;

D) On one (1) public access channel for not more than one (1) year from the first run date, provided neither the producer nor any of the principals in the production receive any compensation for such exhibition and provided further that the Guild is advised of the first air date and the station on which the Short Film will run.
​
6. Further Distribution
A) Producer agrees that prior to exhibition of the Short Film beyond the scope of Section 5, above, it shall:
i. Pay all professional performers employed on the Short Film not less than $100.00 for each day worked. [Note that if a professional performer's performance does not appear in the distributed version, such professional performer shall receive the deferred payment.]

ii. Consecutive employment provisions of the collective bargaining agreement do not apply when calculating the deferred payment, unless the performer was on an overnight location during the filming of the production.

iii. Make contribution to the SAG-Producers Pension and Health Plans based on the gross compensation due the professional performers at the percentage applicable at the time of principal photography on the Short Film.

vi. All compensation paid to Performer under the terms of this Agreement shall constitute wages and is subject to deductions for Social Security, Taxes and Disability Insurance. You shall make the required payments, reports and Withholding Deductions with respect to such taxes and premium. You shall also provide Unemployment Insurance for Performers employed by you.

vii. Professional performers must receive payment no later than the first date of exhibition or availability outside the allowed markets​
Click to expand...

EDIT: notice their numbering under 6 goes 1,2,3,6,7. Maybe 4&5 are where the gotcha clauses are :)
 
SAG doesn't do experimental feature length contracts anymore...only shorts. It and the limited exhibition agreement were supplanted by the Ultra Low Budget Agreement. So there are no more SAG contracts that permit total deferment of union wages on feature length projects. There still is one that does at AFTRA that I recently found out about. It is called the AFTRA Experimental 1. But all cast must be covered by it when in use. This is different from the old feature length Exp. which permitted leaving non members uncovered. Also the AFTRA Experimental One requires every covered member to be upgraded to standard scale if the film is distributed beyond the festival circuit. So in my opinion the SAG ULB is the much safer bet for those with a micro budget. Remember though that scale rates are minimums. I've seen ULBs in which the lead was paid over 50k. But that's what the director was willing to pay for the name actress.
And it should be noted that AFTRA does not like to approve the AFTRA experimental one for features whereas SAG is happy to approve
the ULB when everything is in place.
 
Last edited:
ULBA seems like the best option. It's what we're doing. And it all seems pretty well spelled out from what I read.

What's the problem?
 
http://www.easy-budget.com/articles/articles.asp?article=ultralow -- I kinda got part of what this dude is saying just by looking at the ULBA and reading.

To me, even without that dude's explanation, it sounds like "don't expect to actually benefit monetarily from distributing whatever you're creating."

I have no problem with including actors AND crew in the event of a great distribution deal, however, it sounds like it goes much further than that. Why bother if we have to pretty much negotiate with SAG if we do ANYTHING?
 
This guy sounds like a whiney ass-hat. Do you really think he is the future of film and video entertainment?

Many of the provisions he cites as highway robbery are standard in about all SAG agreements, and I guess they are a surprise if you've never dealt on a professional level before, but they were nothing I did not expect.

I've always been critical of SAG for being slow at change, but residuals are not a "hold-over from the old Hollywood." They are in fact there, because the OLD old Hollywood would just keep all the money and pay performers nothing.

I'll go through the agreement again, but when we went through it before, it didn't seem like it was going to hinder anything we wanted to do with our sales strategy.

Maybe talk your actors into taking your contract instead. But then it's on them with SAG.
 
Last edited:
Mark Harris said:
This guy sounds like a whiney ass-hat.

Many of the provisions he cites as highway robbery are standard in about all SAG agreements, and I guess they are a surprise if you've never dealt on a professional level before, but they were nothing I did not expect.

I've always been critical of SAG for being slow at change, but residuals are not a "hold-over from the old Hollywood." They are in fact there, because the OLD old Hollywood would just keep all the money and pay performers nothing.

I'll go through the agreement again, but when we went through it before, it didn't seem like it was going to hinder anything we wanted to do with our sales strategy.

Maybe talk your actors into taking your contract instead. But then it's on them with SAG.
Click to expand...

Again, residuals toward actors is just fine. It's as fair as I think residuals for writers would be. How else are we supposed to keep it a business and live off of this stuff?

However, it also seems like a serious pain in the ass to try and get the movie distributed and for producers to continue working when you're not getting much money back if you do get a decent sale. Or, say self distribution, if they're ripping so much out from under you to begin with, then what's the point?

Seems like you'd just shoot the movie, give it away for free and ask for donations if someone likes it, and turn out better.

P.S I didn't look at the rest of his website at all. Maybe I should have? Lol
 
Why do you want to use SAG? Hate to rain on anyone prade but SAG SUCKS!!!!! They love to have control of your project. Giving those clowns your hard earn dollars is like throwing money away. I can't find one good reason to use them. If you have a talent that is known that is part of SAG you can go to a right to work state and still shoot your film with the BS. A guy I know shot a film in Arizona a few years back and got a very well known actor to do the lead role without dealing with SAG. Okay that is my 2 cent worth :-)
 
Corine said:
Why do you want to use SAG? Hate to rain on anyone prade but SAG SUCKS!!!!! They love to have control of your project. Giving those clowns your hard earn dollars is like throwing money away. I can't find one good reason to use them. If you have a talent that is known that is part of SAG you can go to a right to work state and still shoot your film with the BS. A guy I know shot a film in Arizona a few years back and got a very well known actor to do the lead role without dealing with SAG. Okay that is my 2 cent worth :-)
Click to expand...

The reason we're considering SAG now is because we just found two very very great actors and we'd really like to use them, barring that they mesh well as the two leads.

I'd like to not have to ask them to hurt themselves down the line by going against their SAG Oath, and better still I'd like to not have anyone blacklisted by SAG down the road as far as producing goes.

I don't have enough working knowledge of this portion of production, so I'm here trying to find out how to make this work without getting raped by SAG in the beginning, middle and end.

Paying the Actors the same rates as SAG ULBA would be no issue, residuals, no issue. Looks like it's much more beyond just that to deal with and doesn't look like anyone would be happy to get a distribution deal in fear of what SAG will come for afterward.
 
Kholi said:
Again, residuals toward actors is just fine. It's as fair as I think residuals for writers would be. How else are we supposed to keep it a business and live off of this stuff?

However, it also seems like a serious pain in the ass to try and get the movie distributed and for producers to continue working when you're not getting much money back if you do get a decent sale. Or, say self distribution, if they're ripping so much out from under you to begin with, then what's the point?

Seems like you'd just shoot the movie, give it away for free and ask for donations if someone likes it, and turn out better.

P.S I didn't look at the rest of his website at all. Maybe I should have? Lol
Click to expand...

How do you translate the UBLA into "ripping so much out from under you to begin with?" It defaults to the standard agreement in the case of say, DVD sales. That is, what 3-6% of gross reserved for the actors? What's the number?

In all likelihood, you are going to have to negotiate something similar with your composer for music, or the music company for music rights. They will want a piece of your movie forever too.

Also, consider the fact that you are much less likely to find actors as good, who are non-SAG. This is simply because sooner or later all actors who reach a certain skill level wind up there. And if your actors suck, your movie sucks- unless you land Lorenzo Lamas, then you're movie ****ing rules no matter what!

Anyway, I am going to read through it again and will report back if it suddenly strikes me as crazy...
 
Mark Harris said:
How do you translate the UBLA into "ripping so much out from under you to begin with?" It defaults to the standard agreement in the case of say, DVD sales. That is, what 3-6% of gross reserved for the actors? What's the number?

In all likelihood, you are going to have to negotiate something similar with your composer for music, or the music company for music rights. They will want a piece of your movie forever too.

Also, consider the fact that you are much less likely to find actors as good, who are non-SAG. This is simply because sooner or later all actors who reach a certain skill level wind up there. And if your actors suck, your movie sucks- unless you land Lorenzo Lamas, then you're movie poo pooing rules no matter what!

Anyway, I am going to read through it again and will report back if it suddenly strikes me as crazy...
Click to expand...

I hope I'm just misunderstanding it. Honestly. I have no problem with the residuals and all of that, I just have no idea how this breaks down. I think this is one of those cases that I need a visual aid to get it.

Say you shoot for 100K, don't go over, don't go under, use the SAG ULBA paying actors 100/day.

You have Two (2) Sag Actors, shoot for 10 Days.

That's 2,000 + 15.8 percent for pension is somewhere around what, 2,300 total for the two actors under sag? Kay got that.

So say you take that 100K feature and self distribute 50K worth of Blu Ray copies of your feature.

Would you end up owing more than what you got back from self distribution because of the agreement?

Also, what's the deal with having to negotiate for prints and all that? And why on earth would they NOT take money for theatrical distribution? When you could distribute theatrically yourself?

These things lose me.
 
Just thought I would drop in and post my SAG experience:

Stricken www.strickenthemovie.com was SAG Ultra Low Budget. I had two SAG actors and the cost for employing them came out (After workman's comp, etc. to 150 an 8 hour day. But the minimum is about 100 which equals 150 a day.

The process was painless as I went through Talent Fund to handle my payroll. They do not take a big cut and are very worth it as they handle all the taxes etc and I never worry about it again. I just fax them an exhibit G after each filming day for each actor.

I worked with a woman named Fatna in the San Fran office. WORK WITH HER IF YOU CAn and say Matt Sconce from Stricken recommended her so she immediately feels like she knows you. She was incredibly transparent, flexible, and helpful, walking me through each step of the way, and following up and helping me when I dropped the ball. David Fine also helped me understand the process. All in all, things went quite well and, to get David, it was worth it.

-Matt sconce
www.matthewsconce.com
 
Ryan Paige said:
Sure, until you've earned back your initial investment, the residual is an additional cost that you must bear (just like manufacturing and distributing the DVDs is an additional cost for self-distributors), but it is a pretty small one.

If you are self-distributing, the residual is 4.5% of distributor's gross for the first $1 million and 5.4% of distributor's gross after that, but distributor's gross is defined in the contract as 20% of the wholesale price. So, if you wholesale your DVDs for $10 each, you owe less than 10 cents per DVD in SAG residuals.



Residuals are payments for reuse in ancillary markets. Because the movie is considered a theatrical motion picture for the purposes of the contract, the initial salary payments cover the theatrical and the residuals are for everything beyond theatrical.
Click to expand...


Thanks so much Ryan. This is what I'm looking for as far as info dealing in distributions. Those don't include actor residuals correct?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top