S16 workflow help

G

Gopher_Greene

Well-known member
I'll be the DP on my student capstone (thesis) film. The director threw me a curve today, he wants to shoot S16. We can get the film donated (short ends). Not having a camera at the school I have never worked with film, so I'm not familiar with the workflow. We shoot, send it off to get it developed, then a supervised transfer? transfer to what? I've heard mini dv but wouldn't that lose what we are trying to gain by shooting film? Can I take a HDD to the transfer house and bring back digital files? Next what costs are we looking at. Our script is 35 pages, I'm afraid that development costs are going to be to rich for our blood. We only have around 9000.00 to do this film and we'll be paying a camera op for his time and camera.
 
bonolabs can do a HD 10 bit 1920x1080 transfer to hard drive .. U only get 2 choices one light or a flat transfer ( IMO do flat) ... they charge by running time so if you have 15 min of film you pay for 15 min .. note there is a min 15min charge .. it is about 700 hr by the time you add in the hared drive loaner ...

dv transfer is good however digibeta is much better ..for a digibeta transfer they should be able to do a anamorphic (squeezed ) transfer ... you could then get a copy of the digibeta to dv tape and edit dv and then later go back to digibeta for better image ...
 
DV Cam or Mini Dv

DV Cam or Mini Dv

If you're not going to blow the footage back up to film, Dv Cam or Mini Dv should work well. I know lots of people who do that, and others are very surprised it wasn't digi-beta. It's really hard to tell. Figure your costs at about $0.35 per second of film shot for development and transfer to SD. At least that's about what we pay up here in Canada.
 
how do you plan to show the project ? TV ? digital projection ? film festivals ? where you will see the difference ( very easy) between digibeta & dv is viewing in FEET .. dv 4:1:1 looks fair to OK 12 feet wide ..digita beta looks very good to excellent 12 feet wide ... i recently had some super 8 transferred to digibeta and a dvcam made at same time ... the dvcam looks good .. when viewing on monitor larger then 32" the digibeta looks much better the dvcam ...
 
Thanks guys for your responses, thats all good and helpful info. The student film is shown on a 12ft screen from DVD. We're hoping this will be good enough to take to festivals, though it maybe a little to long for most festivals. I don't for see it ever being film out, so DVD will probably be the final format. However we are capabale of HD editing so I think we'll stay with the at least the HD transfer.
 
I don't know a lot about film, but I do have one suggestion since you haven't shot on film b4. Take a lot more time than you would normally take for preparation in every aspect. In digital we can burn tape relatively inexpensively so when we screw up the lighting, acting, continuity etc. we just say, screw it we'll just do another take. I think in film it's much more costly to do ton of retakes. Am I right? You give a mag to a post house and you can't tell them to only transfer the best takes right? I helped on a 16mm film recently for the first time and I was amazed at how much time they took to set up the lighting, talk to the actors, discuss the shot and angles etc etc. It seems to me with so many people standing around in between takes you could almost do yourself a favor by hiring an efficiency expert. I'm sure that would piss a lot of people off.

One last thing. Since your final eport is going to be DVD what is the point of shooting in such a costly format? Are there more cost effective options that can deliver similar results? Is it to have the option later to make a higher rez version if it creates some buz in the festival? I did see the transfers to minidv from super16 and I was amazed how good they looked in a SD format.

Some questions for anyone and I'm sure the answers will help Gopher too:

So you edit in minidv and when you've got your final edit done do you have to edit the digibeta/dvcam/other format footage all over again, or is there a smpte time code you can just pop in and viola??

Are there any issues regarding sync issues with sound between the different formats you know like how CD's are 44hz vs minidv which is 48hz? How do you measure hertz or am I refering to kilohertz?

ARe there any editing platforms that can handle editing a native digibeta/dvcam format.

Are there any programs that have the option of storing the digibeta/hdcam footage and automatically spitting out a low res version for the purpose of real time editing while still keeping the low res linked to the high res version for the final draft?

Is the price different for the export to digibeta vs hdcam vs minidv?

If you chose to go with minidv can the post house squeeze more information into the 25mb/sec tape if audio was recorded to external dat or other unit? The post house has to compress the film to minidv using what type of compression? Does it vary from place to place?

If you get a final draft in digibeta or hdcam and you want to show your footage at a film festival do you have to bring the appropriate player that will link to their projector? How do they link? Have you heard of people renting and bringing a better projector?

On the set one of the cinematographers said I could power my audio mixer using a feed from the battery that was powering the 9" monitor. It looked exactly like an XLR cable, but it had 4 prongs instead of 3. Any truth to this?

donatello..what is better about flat vs light In your opinion?

Thanks guys

-Kevin

I feel like the odd man out since I'm the only one with an avitar. Did you guys take a secret oath or something? :)
 
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"what is better about flat vs (one) light In your opinion?

MORE flexability when you CC in post ....
when they transfer your neg/film transferred FLAT the blacks are a little lighter and the highlights in neg are brought down slightly = this gives you more room/options in post to CC ... so basically your transfer looks/is low contrast ( looks flat) - sort of like a DI ( digital intermediate) ... AND it usually means you gave to CC every shot ....

if you get a timed or one light transfer where they set the black to 0 ( 601 or 709 or whatever spec) if you try to lighten it you usually end up with additional grain/noise ..

either way you must expose the negative correctly .... much better to overexpose then to underexpose ...
 
The work flow for s16 is simple...You shoot, then process, then transfer via telecine. A DVCam transfer should be OK for a student project...However I will be the first to admit there is a HUGE difference between footage that was captured at DV quality and footage that is captured at 10 bit uncompressed. Digibeta would be the best for SD...But you need to have access to a CPU with a capture card and a storage solution fast enough to play 10 bit...I can tell you 10 bit uncompressed does not play well through a fire wire drive...A 2 drive sata raid or the internal drives are a better solution. Also g4's are a little hard to please with 10 bit, a fast g5 will be fine.
Since you live in a state that probably doesn't have a decent transfer house I would suggest sending all of your footage to CCI digital in Burbank and have Bob Sachter do a unsupervised session. He is fast and effecient and colors lots of broadcast TV shows so you know the ire levels are always broadcast safe. Student rate is $250 for SD and $350 for HD...on a spirit with a davinci 2k.

As far as shooting...Honestly shooting film is easier. Don't get hung up on contrast ratios and nailing exposure too much...Film is much more flexable and forgiving...So if your back light is 2 stops hotter then you intended...Let it go...Let everything go alittle bit and you will be amazed with the dynamic range of film vs. digital. Also overexpose everything by a half to a full stop to ensure a thicker neg... = more information captured...and if its a little bright they can bring it down in the telecine bay...

I have never done a flat transfer but I know all of the rage behind it. I consider the the colorist as much of a part of the artform as a the DP. So we collaborate while we transfer the film. Plus a Davinci 2k color job will blow FCP 3 way CC out of the water...I know that FCP's Color Correction filter is very powerful and useful...But the Davinci 2K is exactly that...Hollywood standard.

Remember if you do go HD to downconvert and do a SD_DV offline or a 10 bit offline...since SD will ultimately be the final out put. Transfering to HD with 16 will show more grain then going SD...Keep that in mind. Also if you want to retain the film look transfer at 23.98.
 
Two things. First why S16 if your not going to go back to film? I could be wrong but I think you would get what your looking for in regular 16 and save some $.
You have to go double system in production of course but there is no projection S16 with sound so IF you wanted to back to film you have to go up to 35mm and that is $$$.

To answer the sound question someone asked there is no sample rate issues on film. Other than the digital formats (Dolby, SDDS) it's all optical except S16 which has no sound capability. Your not going to be able to touch the digital formats because they require a certified mix stage and a license that is quite pricey.

It is kilo Hertz (44100 Hz and 48000 Hz).

Powering your mixer? probably providing your mixer has a compatible external power connector and the battery is the right voltage. I wouldn't do it unless I was sure. Read the manual it will usually tell you.
 
One other thing that I heard that might save some money is that some places can telecine the negative eliminating any print costs.
 
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