Rust

[Tom Roper]

They are saying that PDQ supplied the live and dummy rounds mixed in the same box with no differentiation to the Rust Production?

Unknown. The opening statement by the defense is vague and the details are saved for later.

Shirley the Armourer should have sourced the rounds? And checked them. How else could they be sure what they were getting?

One would think so, I agree.

That is in the real world with real guns. This is a make believe film set. It is simulated reality. You can't apply range rules, military or police gun rules or standard civil law as you would for a mugging. It is a character threatening another character, NOT a person threatening another person. This is the problem.

Unfortunately, this was a real gun and not a make-believe death. Gloria Alred, attorney for the Hutchins family said that industry protocols may be considered, but they are not the law.

I would love to have the time to sit through this case on TV to hear the arguments.

Court TV has daily updates you can follow. NM v. Hannah Gutierrez: Baldwin Movie Shooting Trial | Court TV

 

[JAMedia]

I'm also wondering if she requested live rounds from PDQ or did she obtain them somewhere else because I've heard that she would take the gun to a firing range and cast members would use live ammo during lunch breaks to target shoot.

It has been mentioned in several places that there were live rounds at the location and some "target practice" during breaks. I have not seen this denied at any time.
This is appalling as there should not have been ANY live rounds on the location.

The two caveats here are for any armed security staff but their weapons and ammunition should have been different to any firearms used in the film and kept very seperate and nothing to do with the films armourer.

The only other caveat is if the Armourer had a live firearm for security and personal protection. I assume an armourer is a target for having the kit (guns and vehicle) stolen when going to and from the filming location. Again this firearm and ammunition should be different to anything used on set.

Appart from that why would there be any live ammunition on the set at all? So if PDQ were supplying the all the dummy rounds should the on set armourer check every round in the box? How do you check them? Visually they are the same as live rounds. This rubbish about the colour of the primer doesn't wash.

 

[Tom Roper]

I'm also wondering if she requested live rounds from PDQ or did she obtain them somewhere else because I've heard that she would take the gun to a firing range and cast members would use live ammo during lunch breaks to target shoot.

I have heard too but not mentioned so far in opening statements. Perhaps it comes up later in witness testimony. But consider the picture from the sheriff's search of the ammo closet at PDQ headquarters; numerous many white boxes of "JS" ammunition. I would guess 30-40 boxes. With so many, the assumption has to be that these were expendable rounds, live rounds because otherwise the quantity is way more than would be needed for dummy rounds that are recycled. So, if dummy rounds were transported in a few of those empty live round boxes as appears to have been the case, it raises the question of if a few leftover live rounds were inadvertently included that way.

One thing that came out in pre trial she was involved in her bf death. Apparently she handed the motorcycle keys to her bf who died in a crash then lied to the police to cover up her involvement. But this can't be used for legal reasons in this trial.

Her drug use has not been mentioned in opening statements either, but Court TV has said the judge will allow those findings to be brought before the jury.

She's not a responsible person. So far they shown that the ammo wasn't organized.

I agree, but consider that the pictures shown from the search of PDQ would seem to be for a narrative that the disorganization with the ammo began before she received it. It could be like being given a box full of cardboard pieces to a puzzle, but there's one piece in there that doesn't belong.

 

[Peter C.]

So far what I've seen, the prosecution hasn't done a good job. From their opening statement, to their handling of ammo expert, to them blundering not redacting her phone number from the exhibit. I think they couldn't even secure an cinema armorer expert. The woman on the stand is police ammunition person and didn't look like she was prepped properly. All they needed her to testify to was that there was live ammo mixed in with the dummy rounds.

 

[Tom Roper]

Seth Kenney, the owner of P-DQ Arm & Prop, which supplied prop weapons and ammunition to the Rust production, is denying that the live rounds on the film’s set came from his company.

In a Thursday interview with Good Morning America, Kenney spoke to ABC News correspondent Kaylee Hartung, telling her that his New Mexico-based company “supplied the guns, the blank ammunition and 50 dummy rounds to the show.” But he denies that the rounds found on set and seized by authorities as part of their investigation came from him, and acknowledges that the FBI is working to learn more about the seized rounds.

“They found four rounds that were close enough to take in with them. They’re not a match, but they were close,” he says. “So there’s something very unique about the live rounds that were found on Rust, but we’ve got to wait for the FBI to do its job.”

Kenney’s public comments come on the heels of a new search warrant filed by the Santa Fe County Sheriff’s Department on Tuesday. The affidavit for the prop shop includes statements from Rust armorer Hannah Gutierrez Reed identifying Kenney’s company as providing the Alec Baldwin-produced and -led Western movie production — where cinematographer Halyna Hutchins was killed in October — with the film’s ammo.

Thell Reed, father of Gutierrez Reed and a longtime Hollywood armorer in his own right, also alleges Kenney asked him to bring additional live ammo to the set of a production they’d previously worked on together so they did not run out. According to statements provided to authorities in the affidavit, Reed arrived with a container of 200 to 300 rounds of “live ammunition,” which Kenney kept.

“The questions of who introduced the live rounds onto the set and why are the central questions in the case. Today’s warrant is a major step toward answering those questions,” said a lawyer representing Gutierrez Reed in a statement sent to The Hollywood Reporter earlier this week.

The ammunition supplier for the movie Rust is being sued by the armorer over the fatal on-set shooting by Alec Baldwin that killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins in October.

The armorer, Hannah Gutierrez Reed is now suing PDQ Arm and Prop LLC, claiming the supplier provided her with dummy ammunition with live rounds mixed in.

Seth Kenney is the owner of PDQ Arm & Prop, which supplied prop weapons and ammunition to the production.

"The introduction of live rounds onto the set, which no one anticipated, combined with the rushed and chaotic atmosphere, created a perfect storm for a safety incident," the lawsuit states, per The Independent.

"The ammunition was misrepresented as only dummy ammunition when it contained both dummy and live ammunition," the filing reads, per Reuters.

"Defendants distributed boxes of ammunition purporting to contain dummy rounds but which contained a mix of dummy and live ammunition to the Rust production."

Kenney has consistently denied that the live rounds on the set of Rust came from his company.

Speaking with Good Morning America in early December, Kenney said that his company "supplied the guns, the blank ammunition and 50 dummy rounds to the show."

However, he denied that the rounds found on set and seized by authorities as part of their investigation came from him.

"They found four rounds that were close enough to take in with them. They're not a match, but they were close," he said at the time. "So there's something very unique about the live rounds that were found on Rust, but we've got to wait for the FBI to do its job."

In the lawsuit filed this week, Gutierrez Reed accuses Kenney of trying to implicate her.

"Seth took it upon himself to essentially investigate this matter for the Sheriff's Office and insert himself into this matter and attempt to implicate Hannah," the suit alleges.

Kenney has yet to comment on the new lawsuit filed by Gutierrez Reed and could not be reached for comment.

Authorities are still investigating where the live round came from and searched the Albuquerque premises of PDQ Arm & Prop in December.

Kenney owned the gun, a 45 caliber long Colt. Why would Gutierrez be in possession of live ammunition for it unless she had her own 45 caliber long Colt? Usually people don't buy ammunition for guns they don't own. She was 22 at the time, barely past apprenticeship. Is a 19th century cartridge and firearm something that a 22 yr old would typically have? The prosecution should have to prove she purchased the ammunition she is alleged to have brought onto the set because Kenney is saying he didn't, but the fact he owns the gun chambered for it implies to me that he did.

 

[Tom Roper]

One more thing bothers me, Hannah is an armorer, her dad is an armorer. Between them, why would they go to a prop supplier for things they already have? They wouldn't. They go to a prop supplier to get the things they don't have. They don't have the guns, why would they have the ammunition? If the reports are true that the guns were regularly used on the scene for plinking, target practice or whatever, somebody knows about it, somebody paid for the ammo. Even the prop supplier isn't going to give it away. Who's credit card did the purchases go on? And if they are not recent purchases who possessed the live rounds. I've rewritten this post 10 times because these questions keep popping up in my head, but the one I can't get around is why Hannah would have ammunition for that gun if it didn't come from Kenney. Maybe the whole story of firing off rounds for plinking and practice on the set is false. I need a rest. Putting keyboard away.

 

[Peter C.]

I would agree I think it sounds more likely that PDQ did supply the live ammo. The police/prosecutors where also slow to act. They searched PDQ like two weeks later and surprise surprise they didn't find live ammo. The idea of bringing live rounds to set in case they ran out tracks with this whole cost cutting the movie production was doing. They would need to find texts or emails confirming this. It would also have to come from the defense because this would hurt the prosecution case unless HG knew this.

 

[Tom Roper]

Peter I have to caution one thing, the part about Thell bringing live rounds to the set in case they ran out refers to the set of a production they’d previously worked on together, not the set of Rust. It stuck out to me, but also because Kenney didn't return the rounds that Thell supplied. But it does make a point that Kenney had brought live rounds on at least that one other set.

 

[Peter C.]

Peter I have to caution one thing, the part about Thell bringing live rounds to the set in case they ran out refers to the set of a production they’d previously worked on together, not the set of Rust. It stuck out to me, but also because Kenney didn't return the rounds that Thell supplied.

good point but if they did it on one production it wouldn't be surprising it was a practice they commonly employed and even if they didn't intend to do it on Rust it might also explain how live rounds got inadvertently mixed in. Maybe PDQ is fine but we know very little about them and it did seem like Rust priority was cutting corners and finding people for that purpose.

The fact that he came out so confident that the live rounds didn't come from them doesn't mean anything. After all Baldwin did those interviews saying he didn't pull the trigger which ended up being untrue. People who are innocent don't feel a compulsion to run to the media to proclaim their innocents. Hopefully we'll find out what really happen.

 

[Tom Roper]

good point but if they did it on one production it wouldn't be surprising it was a practice they commonly employed and even if they didn't intend to do it on Rust it might also explain how live rounds got inadvertently mixed in. Maybe PDQ is fine but we know very little about them and it did seem like Rust priority was cutting corners and finding people for that purpose.

The fact that he came out so confident that the live rounds didn't come from them doesn't mean anything. After all Baldwin did those interviews saying he didn't pull the trigger which ended up being untrue. People who are innocent don't feel a compulsion to run to the media to proclaim their innocents. Hopefully we'll find out what really happen.

^^^Agree 100% with all of it.

Also the media focus and Vinnie Politan and Court TV may be wrong. In other words, Hannah did let the live rounds get past her, so there could be enough to convict her. But the media focus on "who" brought in the live rounds might not be the pertinent question for Hannah's guilt or innocence. But she is on trial criminally before the civil action she brought against Kenney has come to trial. It's a tangled mess.

 

[JAMedia]

It's a tangled mess.

And everyone will be covering their own arse and trying to drop a scape goat in to it.....

Whilst I think Baldwin the Actor can't be blamed, I do think the Producers, including Baldwin, carry a lot of the blame.

I wonder if we will ever get to the bottom of it.

 

[morgan_moore]

Im fron the UK - I know nothing about weapons.

I watched some court TV.

It would seem that the amourer is in place to protect the set.

If everything was perfect then the armourer would not be needed.

But things get imperfect.. someone introduces live ammo to shoot bottles in downtime. for example.

The reason to have an armourer is there to create a wall from the outside world to the set.

So the thoughts on folk introducing ammo, having it left over from other (motion picture) shoots or whatever are irrelevant.

The armouer provides the saftety wall around the set.

If in downtime they are shooting bottles/birds and there is an accident well it gets grey.. but on set surely it is clear - the armouer should be the wall of safety.

 

[morgan_moore]

Im fron the UK - I know nothing

While it would seem to be her 'fault' as the gatekeeper it is an apparent tradgedy that a young person would take that role without the confidense or skills to do it.

The higher ups are also culpable (I guess) for making a poor employment choice.

Also any film schools or whatever must ingrain the improtance of understanding and competence at the role you are taking.

 

[Peter C.]

While it would seem to be her 'fault' as the gatekeeper it is an apparent tradgedy that a young person would take that role without the confidense or skills to do it.

The higher ups are also culpable (I guess) for making a poor employment choice.

Also any film schools or whatever must ingrain the improtance of understanding and competence at the role you are taking.

I think her father a retired armorer got her the job by recommending her. I'm sure he meant well.

 

[morgan_moore]

Well
"any film schools or whatever must ingrain the improtance of understanding and competence at the role you are taking."

He would be the worst form of whatever? Whatever he meant

 

[JAMedia]

Well
"any film schools or whatever must ingrain the improtance of understanding and competence at the role you are taking."
He would be the worst form of whatever? Whatever he meant

You do know her father was one of the most experienced film armourers in the business?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thell_Reed

Though if you are going to start with

Im from the UK - I know nothing about weapons

You might be better refraining from commenting about firearms.
BTW that you are from the UK has no relevance.

 

[Doug Bee]

It does not matter where the live rounds came from.

The armorer has several steps that would prevent one ending up in the weapon. They should pick this up as one of the core responsibilities of their job.

Arguing this is a movie set and the guy with the real functioning weapon was just in some make believe play is stupid.

Arguing the jurisdiction or law does not apply on a movie set because of acting? But it does apply to an armorer? Does not make sense. We would not have a trial if that was the case. Of course it matters that the person holding the weapon ignored convention and protocol and did not make sure the weapon was safe. They share that responsibility.

This case has a lot of cross over to the arguments that were successfully used by John Landis in the Twilight Zone trial. The director can not be responsible despite asking for a lower helicopter flight to the pilot and then larger explosions to the pyro team. The sum of those notes caused the accident. His defence was how was I supposed to know.

Like the armorer, an in-experienced pilot did not want to say or speak up when they were asked to do something beyond their own capacity or capability. The armorer in this case repeatedly asked for more days where she was solely an armorer. The production had converted her to be an assistant to the props master, making her subservient. In her role as an armorer she supersedes a prop master. But not when she is an assistant also further muddling the waters. An experienced armorer likely would not have allowed this. She was doing her second job where one of the producers and stars is a famous Hollywood actor. Her job was to say no in that scenario before the fateful day. Not only that, there had already been two previous misfires already. A very bad sign that the producers should have acted upon but did not.

Remember too that Haylnas own camera department had quit the job that very morning citing safety issues. This was the first setup of the afternoon with a new camera crew.

 

[JAMedia]

It does not matter where the live rounds came from.

Actually it does matter. More so in the mess we are looking at.
How and why they came to be there and at what point they got into the system.

I had the opposite situation once. All live ammunition, all magazines loaded and I found my self facing one of the weapons with a magazine on.
I assumed the weapon was fully loaded.

It turned out the two people with the firearm had brought two of their own magazines with them to practice magazine changes.
The situation was nearly fatal.

 

[Tom Roper]

It does not matter where the live rounds came from.

Agree.

The armorer has several steps that would prevent one ending up in the weapon. They should pick this up as one of the core responsibilities of their job.

Agree.

Arguing this is a movie set and the guy with the real functioning weapon was just in some make believe play is stupid.

Agree

Arguing the jurisdiction or law does not apply on a movie set because of acting? But it does apply to an armorer? Does not make sense. We would not have a trial if that was the case. Of course it matters that the person holding the weapon ignored convention and protocol and did not make sure the weapon was safe. They share that responsibility.

Agree

This case has a lot of cross over to the arguments that were successfully used by John Landis in the Twilight Zone trial. The director can not be responsible despite asking for a lower helicopter flight to the pilot and then larger explosions to the pyro team. The sum of those notes caused the accident. His defence was how was I supposed to know.

Like the armorer, an in-experienced pilot did not want to say or speak up when they were asked to do something beyond their own capacity or capability. The armorer in this case repeatedly asked for more days where she was solely an armorer. The production had converted her to be an assistant to the props master, making her subservient. In her role as an armorer she supersedes a prop master. But not when she is an assistant also further muddling the waters. An experienced armorer likely would not have allowed this. She was doing her second job where one of the producers and stars is a famous Hollywood actor. Her job was to say no in that scenario before the fateful day. Not only that, there had already been two previous misfires already. A very bad sign that the producers should have acted upon but did not.

Remember too that Haylnas own camera department had quit the job that very morning citing safety issues. This was the first setup of the afternoon with a new camera crew.

I was primed to jump in and take exception, not sure how or why because I agree with all of it. Twighlight Zone was a long time ago, aware of it generally but not the details.

My recollections of Midnight Rider are more recent. There were certainly some parallels with Rust, the producer's denial of wrongdoing and blame aimed at CSX Transportation hauntingly similar; a reckless and tangled mess.

 

[Tom Roper]

Actually it does matter. More so in the mess we are looking at.
Why and why they came to be there and at what point they got into the system.

It does help with understanding the underlying factors and root cause.