They were accountable in the sense of their roles as production managers during workplace safety violations under the dept of labor and osha. Baldwin and Gutierrez for criminal violations charged as involuntary manslaughter. The trial already has enough for the conviction of Gutierrez, the state appears to be testing theories to be used later in the Baldwin case.
Rust
- Thread starter Peter C.
- Start date
JAMedia
Well-known member
I would agree with you CharlesPapert Baldini was acting so the other producers would be running the set more than he would be. Though he does bare responsibility as a producer on the run up to the shooting. They seem to have got a novice and unqualified armourer in they could lean on. I suspect an more experienced armourer would not have put up with a lot of what was going on.
There seems to be a lot of muddying the waters. The live round target shooting and the sabotage rumours might just be there to throw off the attention to the appalling running of the set. Though it does still matter greatly where and when live rounds were introduced to the set.
I am not sure Gutierrez is guilty of manslaughter but that is jumping the gun until all the evidence is in.
There seems to be a lot of muddying the waters. The live round target shooting and the sabotage rumours might just be there to throw off the attention to the appalling running of the set. Though it does still matter greatly where and when live rounds were introduced to the set.
I am not sure Gutierrez is guilty of manslaughter but that is jumping the gun until all the evidence is in.
JAMedia
Well-known member
Yes and no. You are comparing a qualified armourer with a police SWAT background and over 22 years experience with some one unqualified, untrained with 22 days experience.
So yes night and day, but what the hell was she doing there on her own as armourer?
The Real Armourer was saying he often worked with 1-18 assistants Rust was expecting Hannah to double as prop assistant as well as be armourer and was complaining she was not spending enough time on props (at the expense of being an armourer). The producers are seriously at fault here. The producers/Director should have seen on day 1 she was not up to the job.
The apparent discrepancy between people that were charged criminally and those that were behind workplace safety violations comes down to who handled the gun that killed Hutchins and those that did not. Halls, Baldwin and Gutierrez handled the gun that killed Hutchins. Sarah and Nicole handled and loaded guns also, but not the gun that killed Hutchins. Halls pleaded no contest to negligent handling of a firearm in front of this same Judge Somers. She said at his sentencing,
so a conviction in her court is likely to receive maximum sentence. The other producers and managers were guilty of workplace safety violations while acting in their respective capacities for the Rust production company but not directly accountable for negligent gun handling or manslaughter.
By the way, workplace safety violations almost always include findings of insufficient training, not up to date training, inadequate training, undocumented training, record keeping violations, not maintaining injury logs and many others so it definitely does recognize the circumstances of an unqualified armorer, or not specifying adequate qualifications, the accident itself can be used as proof of this. They could even issue penalties for the omission of armorer qualifications in job descriptions in the union safety rules if that is what is being relied upon. The workplace safety violation not just for observed violations like trip hazards, frayed electrical cords or actors observed pointing guns at each although it can be considered. The financial penalties use to be considered huge but now they look small because they are set by law and are old.
CharlesPapert
Director of Photography
Yes, that is the point I made earlier today. The producers made conscious financial decisions that created an unsafe work environment. Not only in terms of hiring, but pushing for a working speed that streamrolled over rehearsals and safety protocol. They should have been implicated and charged, instead they are all off making other films and going on with their lives. I know I wouldn't work with them.
The state's strategy here in bringing in that expert seems aimed more at Baldwin as the producer case ahead, but it seems puzzling if not risky introducing it now for the Gutierrez case because if they are successful in convincing a jury that Gutierrez didn't have a snowball's chance in that workplace, they can be sympathetic to her claim to be a scapegoat, which is ahead when the defense presents its side of the case, which they outlined in their opening that she was. Meanwhile, I think there has otherwise been a solid case brought against her that she was untruthful in parts of her narrative offered to Agent Hancock, and that is at risk from the state's strategy. Maybe they want a soft landing for Hannah? One has to wonder.
Meanwhile, the industry sets themselves up for this liability by not having a specific set of qualifications for the position. You shouldn't be allowed to hire someone off the street and pile on a bunch of responsibilities they have no defined qualifications for, and expect that the liability for something that goes wrong is going to shouldered by that grunt person and cloak the responsible parties who can just shrug, as it seems they have here.
CharlesPapert
Director of Photography
I've haven't heard anything yet, but I feel sure that situation is evolving and that there will be a number of changes ahead in terms of weapons handling on set. Liability--that will be a tricky one. I hold up little hope that this will result in improved legal protection for the crewperson. The crap always rolls downhill.
Just tuned in for the 2nd half replay of today's court proceeding, and state has just called David Halls as a witness. This should be fascinating. I just want to point out here that he identified himself as the "Safety Coordinator" on the Rust set, and that is a signatory responsibility with OSHA cynically referred to, as "designated felon." It carries profound responsibility. Before you accept that role you want to make sure you are compensated for the risk you take, and have personal liability insurance.
This is gripping. I have never seen Mr. Halls before this, but he profoundly speaks from the heart. It is very obvious he carries deep pain and responsibility. I'm not sure he will make it through this testimony without breaking down, but he defended Gutierrez as someone he trusted in this capacity, and I think he will admit where she erred with honestly.
Dramatic testimony from David Halls. It appears to me that he has been more helpful to the defense case and Hannah than he was to the prosecution who brought him, and by the end the prosecutor's questions appeared more of a cross examination. Regardless, his testimony was emotional, straight from heart, truthful as he knew it, his recollections sincere if not always sharp. I was not expecting that. Next up, Sarah Zachary, this was a huge day.
There is something to be said about the difference between honesty and integrity, that integrity is just honesty, when no one's looking. Mr. Halls has integrity.
There is something to be said about the difference between honesty and integrity, that integrity is just honesty, when no one's looking. Mr. Halls has integrity.
I have not watched the testimony, but there is no way the AD has any credibility or integrity.
Nice or remorseful or sincere is not what is being tried.
I have zero sympathy. Their lazy ineptitude killed someone that did not need to die. How about they think about her 9 year old son. Maybe that can explain how their incompetence meant their mother never came home from work.
They were totally negligent at the most basic levels of their job description. Want to know what those obligations are?
This is a pretty good read. It is Warner Bros own safety site.
https://www.safetyontheset.com/wp-co...st-AD-2016.pdf
Many of you lack basic comprehension but the buck stops with the AD when it comes to crew safety. Thats how the system works. They are the designated ones responsible.
Unlike the armorer he was quite experienced.
They were not having morning safety meetings. One of the cited reasons for the crew walking even after crew complaining about them not happening to producers.
The director apparently tried to placate the crew by also requesting safety meetings and still they did not happen. There was not one on the day of the accident.
He created the environment and culture that lead to this accident happening. He was the one who should never have picked up the weapon and never have handed it to the actor.
He also has a history of complaints for on other shows especially with regards to safety. A track record of bad safety. And here we are.
And yes the actor gets called out a lot for being a producer because he is also the one who broke a crucial safety protocol and pointed the weapon at a person.
And he accepted the weapon from the aforementioned unsafe protocol breaking AD.
As a producer he would known why there was a new camera department on set that afternoon. He would have known they left because of concerns for safety. He would have known about previous misfires. I have never seen a misfire on set in all my years and this show had at least two before the main event. Thats very very unusual and should have been a red flag to any producer that something is seriously wrong.
The producers certainly ignored complaints of unsafe practice and signs of non compliance with very established protocols and let it slide. They likely all would have acted together and unified. They would have all been on the same email or text chains and known that crew were concerned.
One of those producers was the one who chose to point an uncleared weapon at someone when they had no good reason to.
So I think they deserve the double scrutiny.
The system works well. While there have been deaths and accidents, considering how many non accident days there have been I think the system works well.
For it to work, it has to be implemented and executed. None of these guys were following any of the protocols. And the ADs primary responsibility is to make sure these protocols are enforced. Unforgivable.
Nice or remorseful or sincere is not what is being tried.
I have zero sympathy. Their lazy ineptitude killed someone that did not need to die. How about they think about her 9 year old son. Maybe that can explain how their incompetence meant their mother never came home from work.
They were totally negligent at the most basic levels of their job description. Want to know what those obligations are?
This is a pretty good read. It is Warner Bros own safety site.
https://www.safetyontheset.com/wp-co...st-AD-2016.pdf
Many of you lack basic comprehension but the buck stops with the AD when it comes to crew safety. Thats how the system works. They are the designated ones responsible.
Unlike the armorer he was quite experienced.
They were not having morning safety meetings. One of the cited reasons for the crew walking even after crew complaining about them not happening to producers.
The director apparently tried to placate the crew by also requesting safety meetings and still they did not happen. There was not one on the day of the accident.
He created the environment and culture that lead to this accident happening. He was the one who should never have picked up the weapon and never have handed it to the actor.
He also has a history of complaints for on other shows especially with regards to safety. A track record of bad safety. And here we are.
And yes the actor gets called out a lot for being a producer because he is also the one who broke a crucial safety protocol and pointed the weapon at a person.
And he accepted the weapon from the aforementioned unsafe protocol breaking AD.
As a producer he would known why there was a new camera department on set that afternoon. He would have known they left because of concerns for safety. He would have known about previous misfires. I have never seen a misfire on set in all my years and this show had at least two before the main event. Thats very very unusual and should have been a red flag to any producer that something is seriously wrong.
The producers certainly ignored complaints of unsafe practice and signs of non compliance with very established protocols and let it slide. They likely all would have acted together and unified. They would have all been on the same email or text chains and known that crew were concerned.
One of those producers was the one who chose to point an uncleared weapon at someone when they had no good reason to.
So I think they deserve the double scrutiny.
The system works well. While there have been deaths and accidents, considering how many non accident days there have been I think the system works well.
For it to work, it has to be implemented and executed. None of these guys were following any of the protocols. And the ADs primary responsibility is to make sure these protocols are enforced. Unforgivable.
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So in addition to the profound loss of Halyna to the Hutchins family, there are the ended careers of David Halls and Sarah Zachary, both clearly traumatized.
I am now questioning my prior conclusion that the case had been proven against Gutierrez because something Sarah Zachary said today, and something Corporal Hancock had said earlier.
Let's review.
1.) Corporal Hancock testified that she was told by Hannah that she brought two boxes of dummy rounds to the set, that in the aftermath 1 was given to Detective Bienvenides, and the other was not found. The box contained 1 suspected live round that did not shake but was determined by the FBI to be a dummy anyway, therefore no live rounds were found in this box presumed supplied by Seth Kenney, and he was therefore presumed not to be the source of live rounds. The dummies in this box were consistent with the dummies loaded in the bandoliers that were loaded from this box, and that this box was determined to have been provided by Seth Kenney. Corporal Hancock after reviewing photos taken of the cart revealed that 3 dummies, and two live rounds were on the cart.
2.) A search of Hannah's phone revealed a picture of a box of dummies Hannah said she loaded from.
3.) Hannah was shown a picture of the box which she denied being the box she loaded from because the order of the cartridges in the tray were randomized (my word) whereas Hannah said she picked them from one end of the open box.
4.) Corporal Hancock told Hannah that this was the box she (Hannah) had given to Detective Bienvenides, and that two live rounds were found on the cart that didn't match the dummies in the box she said she loaded from supplied by Kenney and pictured on Hannah's phone.
5.) Hannah's reaction was hostile to the suggestion (WTF).
6.) Corporal Hancock's suggestion was that in the totality, these facts didn't align or were untruthful, and I thought so too.
However,
7.) Sarah Zachary today testified that Hannah ordered 1 box of dummies from PDQ, and that Sarah drove from the set to Albuquerque to pick them up from Seth's office and bring them to the set.
8.) Sarah did not know whereabouts of a suspected 2nd box mentioned by Corporal Hancock.
9.) Sarah, stated when she heard the shot, she looked in the church, saw Joel Sueza laying on the ground. Sarah in an attack of anxiety went to the cart and started shaking the rounds in the box before Hannah had exited the church, and a bunch of them didn't rattle. Sarah collected the other two guns of Jensen and Swen and unloaded them, all containing dummies and threw the dummies into an adjacent trash receptacle. When Hannah found her by the cart she was told by Sarah a bunch of rounds were "bad ones." But she corrected that remark today saying only two were "bad ones," that she had been mistaken about the others because they didn't rattle but found they did have holes so they weren't live, just dummies.
- In my rebuttal to charge of a 2nd box of dummies provided by Hannah, Sarah said she had no reason to believe that Hannah had another box, that she only knew of the box she herself had picked up from PDQ Props in Albuquerque, and that there was not a 2nd box of 45 long colt that she was aware of, nor was there need for a 2nd box, one was plenty.
- That the two live rounds found on the cart were the same two live rounds discovered and plucked from the box by Sarah Zachary.
- That the confusion by Hannah when told by Corporal Hancock that the box of randomized, by randomized I just mean the tray had more holes than cartridges, and the identical dummy rounds were distributed randomly across the whole of the tray instead of being lined up at one end as Hannah had remembered. This could be because the picture Hannah was shown came after Sarah had plucked through them looking for live rounds, of which she did eventually find two, and I would theorize were the same two live rounds found on the cart, which were two of the three that ended up on the cart with the 3rd finding its way into the gun.
-That the mentioning of a 2nd box of dummies was a mis-statement or referred to something else, like a different caliber or for the rifles, not clear, not sure I am doubtful it ever existed.
- That the box provided by Seth Kenney's PDQ Props LLC probably contained the 3 live rounds, the two found on the cart and the one that killed Hutchins.
- David Halls said that Hannah was professional and thorough, and accepted responsibility for not checking the gun thoroughly after Hannah had demonstrated that 3 or 4 chambers in the cylinder contained dummy rounds before handing it back to Hannah to give to Baldwin.
I am now questioning my prior conclusion that the case had been proven against Gutierrez because something Sarah Zachary said today, and something Corporal Hancock had said earlier.
Let's review.
1.) Corporal Hancock testified that she was told by Hannah that she brought two boxes of dummy rounds to the set, that in the aftermath 1 was given to Detective Bienvenides, and the other was not found. The box contained 1 suspected live round that did not shake but was determined by the FBI to be a dummy anyway, therefore no live rounds were found in this box presumed supplied by Seth Kenney, and he was therefore presumed not to be the source of live rounds. The dummies in this box were consistent with the dummies loaded in the bandoliers that were loaded from this box, and that this box was determined to have been provided by Seth Kenney. Corporal Hancock after reviewing photos taken of the cart revealed that 3 dummies, and two live rounds were on the cart.
2.) A search of Hannah's phone revealed a picture of a box of dummies Hannah said she loaded from.
3.) Hannah was shown a picture of the box which she denied being the box she loaded from because the order of the cartridges in the tray were randomized (my word) whereas Hannah said she picked them from one end of the open box.
4.) Corporal Hancock told Hannah that this was the box she (Hannah) had given to Detective Bienvenides, and that two live rounds were found on the cart that didn't match the dummies in the box she said she loaded from supplied by Kenney and pictured on Hannah's phone.
5.) Hannah's reaction was hostile to the suggestion (WTF).
6.) Corporal Hancock's suggestion was that in the totality, these facts didn't align or were untruthful, and I thought so too.
However,
7.) Sarah Zachary today testified that Hannah ordered 1 box of dummies from PDQ, and that Sarah drove from the set to Albuquerque to pick them up from Seth's office and bring them to the set.
8.) Sarah did not know whereabouts of a suspected 2nd box mentioned by Corporal Hancock.
9.) Sarah, stated when she heard the shot, she looked in the church, saw Joel Sueza laying on the ground. Sarah in an attack of anxiety went to the cart and started shaking the rounds in the box before Hannah had exited the church, and a bunch of them didn't rattle. Sarah collected the other two guns of Jensen and Swen and unloaded them, all containing dummies and threw the dummies into an adjacent trash receptacle. When Hannah found her by the cart she was told by Sarah a bunch of rounds were "bad ones." But she corrected that remark today saying only two were "bad ones," that she had been mistaken about the others because they didn't rattle but found they did have holes so they weren't live, just dummies.
- In my rebuttal to charge of a 2nd box of dummies provided by Hannah, Sarah said she had no reason to believe that Hannah had another box, that she only knew of the box she herself had picked up from PDQ Props in Albuquerque, and that there was not a 2nd box of 45 long colt that she was aware of, nor was there need for a 2nd box, one was plenty.
- That the two live rounds found on the cart were the same two live rounds discovered and plucked from the box by Sarah Zachary.
- That the confusion by Hannah when told by Corporal Hancock that the box of randomized, by randomized I just mean the tray had more holes than cartridges, and the identical dummy rounds were distributed randomly across the whole of the tray instead of being lined up at one end as Hannah had remembered. This could be because the picture Hannah was shown came after Sarah had plucked through them looking for live rounds, of which she did eventually find two, and I would theorize were the same two live rounds found on the cart, which were two of the three that ended up on the cart with the 3rd finding its way into the gun.
-That the mentioning of a 2nd box of dummies was a mis-statement or referred to something else, like a different caliber or for the rifles, not clear, not sure I am doubtful it ever existed.
- That the box provided by Seth Kenney's PDQ Props LLC probably contained the 3 live rounds, the two found on the cart and the one that killed Hutchins.
- David Halls said that Hannah was professional and thorough, and accepted responsibility for not checking the gun thoroughly after Hannah had demonstrated that 3 or 4 chambers in the cylinder contained dummy rounds before handing it back to Hannah to give to Baldwin.
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CharlesPapert
Director of Photography
Give this a read.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/24/ente...ssistant-director-halls-complaints/index.html
I worked with Halls years ago on some reshoots but honestly I don't remember him. I did hear about his approach on Rust which corroborates various things in this article: rushing through or eliminating safety meetings and cutting corners in the name of speed. The general culture is that the UPM will push the 1st AD to keep things moving on set, often to the point of timing lighting setups to report these back to the UPM. While I have worked with some great 1st's who respect the filmmaking process, I have always worked with many who will push at the wrong times and in the wrong ways and from what I've heard, Halls was definitely one of those.
Peter C.
Veteran
Without any knowledge of him purely from the facts of the case and his testimony, I’d agree. He appeared remorseful but his skipping safety protocol in favor of speed seems to be his normal approach and this incident wasn’t an aberration. His description of the events sounded vague and disjointed this I feel is because he put little to no attention to safety.
Baldwin was also noted for his impatience, that he was demanding of everyone else being ready when he was, while he would not be present for safety meetings and used a stand-in for setups and rehearsals. Halls himself had stood in for Baldwin inside the church on that day when there was no one else to stand in.