Rendering 24p DVD

jdsmith19

jdsmith19

Well-known member
Okay--I know that this topic is all over these boards, but I have been unable to find a concrete answer anywhere to my specific question, so I'm going to ask to try to clear it up once and for all. I have no problem editing on a 24p timeline or rendering out a 24p AVI file (with either pulldown). My question is regarding the MPEG-2 render. In the options for rendering you can either render as 23.976 fps or 23.976 + 2-3 pulldown. When using the DVX and rendering to 24p DVD, what is the correct way to do that? My thought process is...

Vegas automatically removes the 2-3 pulldown (or 2-3-3-2 in 24pa), so I should render in the normal 23.976.

However, at the same time, for the DVD to play on a television, the DVD player has to insert pulldown for it to appear correct (because U.S. televisions can ONLY display in 60i). So therefore, I may need to add the pulldown for compatibility with all DVD players (ones that are incapable of inserting pulldown) Or are all players capable of this? Or am I just missing the point somewhere?

Both of these options make sense to me, and I know one of them must be the correct way to render a 24p DVD with the DVX100 and VEGAS. I have rendered in both ways and I am pleased with the results on both, however, my eye is new to film and rather untrained, so there may be strobing/artifacts/something that I am just not noticing.

Any answer would be greatly appreciated. I've learned a lot from this website and Barry's book, but this is just a little confusing to me. Also, I am assuming that since VEGAS automatically removes pulldown, it will not matter if I shoot in 24p or 24pa when it comes to the render process. (I always shoot in 24pa anyway, so that is just out of curiosity).

J.D.
 
Vegas+DVD makes it easy for you. Simply select the 24pDVD Architect streem in the custom settings. YOu can change bit rate, but you want the selection to say 23.976+2-3 pulldown. This basically inserts the flags in the file so that the DVD player can recognize it. You cannot burn a dvd file with a straight 23.976fps render, Architect will want to rerender the footage. So you will still be saving 20% on your DVD, there are no extra frames added, it just makes the file meet the DVD spec. It is a rather confusing subject.
 
I'd like to follow up with a couple of questions since this is also confusing for me:

If the dvd is burned as described above (option in Vegas set to 23.976 + 2-3 pulldown) , the dvd will be burned to contain 24 progressive fps, with flags to tell the dvd player to insert pulldown if the output of the dvd player is set to interlaced. Am I correct about this?

Also, suppose the output of the dvd player is set to "progressive" (I have a switch on my dvd player for progressive or interlaced output). Is the output of the dvd player then just 24p with no pulldown (if, for example, you are playing on a progressive monitor)?

Finally, suppose you set the option in Vegas to render 23.976 (not 23.976 + 2-3 pulldown), how would this differ in terms of what is burned on the dvd? I'm guessing that there would be no flags, but anyone out there know for sure?

Thanks in advance.
 
Let me combine/rephrase my question above. Suppose you selected 23.976 fps in Vegas (instead of 23.976 + 2-3 pulldown). As stated above, Architect will rerender, but will it be rerendered to native 23.976 fps without the flags (which then would not be compatible with a dvd player)?
 
The 23.976 with 2-3 pulldown is the only type of 24fps DVD that DVD Architect will burn. So if you render it out from vegas without the pulldown, Architect will just rerender it to 23.976 + 2-3 pulldown. The same as if you were to import a 24fps AVI file. If you render then to 23.976 without the pulldown, then you are going to get quality loss that will probably be noticeable because of the multiple generations of mpeg-2.

j.d.
 
OK, now I understand. Thanks! This whole setting of 23.976 + 2-3 pulldown was always confusing to me and seemed a contradiction in terms.
 
jdsmith19 said:
The 23.976 with 2-3 pulldown is the only type of 24fps DVD that DVD Architect will burn.

j.d.
Click to expand...

So it is not possible to produce a 24p dvd using DVDA that would only play, for example, on a PC with a progresive monitor? (I realize that a dvd burned at 23.976 + 2-3 pulldown would still work in this application, but I am curious if it is possible to burn a dvd without the 2-3 pulldown flags, since the "+ 2-3 pulldown" option would not be needed)
 
Why would you want to do that?

Easiest thing to do would be to burn a 24p MPEG and save it to disc as data. Then your computer could play it, but a DVD player could not.
 
Jubal28 said:
Why would you want to do that?
Click to expand...

I just purchased a Sony high def TV set, and it is possible to set it to "progressive" playback. Although I am not exactly sure what Sony means by "progressive" (i.e., if this means it then acts like a progressive computer monitor), I was wondering if I could set the output of my dvd player to progressive, set my new Sony TV to progressive, and then take a 24p dvd burned without the "+ 2-3 pulldown" flags (if it were possible to create such a dvd in Architect) and view it in native 24p on the new TV set? Thus, I wanted to create the dvd without the pulldown flags so only native 24p would be input to the Sony TV. But then I may be totally out-to-lunch on this whole idea, and maybe that is what would be done even if the dvd was burned with the pulldown flags (since the output of the dvd player is set to progressive).
 
Your new TV will adjust to the feed and display in progressive when it gets a progressive signal.

What your progressive-scan DVD player will do is remove the pulldown and send a pure 24p signal to your TV, which will then display it in true 24p. You're overthinking the problem. Just burn a DVD as has been described.
 
I think you guys are missing what a 23.976+2:3 pulldown file is. It is in fact a true 24p file. It does not have added frames. Try it yourself. Render out a file with a straight 23.976fps file and one with 2:3 pulldown. The files will be exactly the same size. Now render that same file as a 60i file and you will see that it is 20% bigger. The only difference between the two files is that one has flags and the other does not. The DVD player needs to have the flags in order to know how to properly display the file on a 60i timeline.
 
That's correct, scharky; even if you watch a 24p DVD on an interlaced set, if you step through the frames, you'll count 24 per second.

So guys -- don't get so hung up on it. You're burning a true 24p DVD. Let the software do its thing.
 
OK, I was hoping that was the case, but I just wasn't able to convince myself based on a few simple experiments. For example, I didn't really see a difference on my TV between playing a 24p video burned with the "+ 2-3 pulldown" when my settings for playback were in progressive or interlaced modes. But, based on the comments above, I think that is probably because my eye is not yet trained enough to see the (sometimes) subtle differences between the two. In this case, there was not a lot of motion in the video I was experimenting on. Thanks for your help guys!
 
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