reds and orange on DVX100a
- Thread starter edmessina
- Start date
J_Barnes
Veteran
Re: reds and orange on DVX100a
Here's standard advice for anything that will end up on a television.
Don't wear white. Don't wear black. Don't wear patterns. and finally, don't wear vibrant reads.
The same goes for your set in general.
White is too white. Even dress shirts are typically dyed a very light grey to tone them down a bit. Patterns result in moire' which is the strobbing effect you see in televisions whenever someone wears horizontal stripes.
Reds seem to blow out on all video, so pick colors that are toned down a bit when in the red range of things. More towards brick and wine then fire engines and ferraris.
Most of that falls under the duties of an art director.
Here's standard advice for anything that will end up on a television.
Don't wear white. Don't wear black. Don't wear patterns. and finally, don't wear vibrant reads.
The same goes for your set in general.
White is too white. Even dress shirts are typically dyed a very light grey to tone them down a bit. Patterns result in moire' which is the strobbing effect you see in televisions whenever someone wears horizontal stripes.
Reds seem to blow out on all video, so pick colors that are toned down a bit when in the red range of things. More towards brick and wine then fire engines and ferraris.
Most of that falls under the duties of an art director.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: reds and orange on DVX100a
I agree with all of the info above. To add - You might consider under exposing when you cant avoid having bright reds in your shot. Then bring the image back in post using broadcast color standards in your NLE. Also turn down the chroma level alittle bit on the camera. Once again you can always selectively bring back the colors to their proper level in post. Sometimes you have to resist the temptation to make everything bright and colors poping in camera. Instead when given extremes try to set your self up with the best image you can work with in post. The results will be better in the end.
I agree with all of the info above. To add - You might consider under exposing when you cant avoid having bright reds in your shot. Then bring the image back in post using broadcast color standards in your NLE. Also turn down the chroma level alittle bit on the camera. Once again you can always selectively bring back the colors to their proper level in post. Sometimes you have to resist the temptation to make everything bright and colors poping in camera. Instead when given extremes try to set your self up with the best image you can work with in post. The results will be better in the end.
Hooligan
Active member
Re: reds and orange on DVX100a
Hey sorry for the noob question. Im still waiting for my Barry guide :
I got my dvx100a a couple of weeks ago. and I am still having a hard time getting acurate reds. If I am shooting a burgandy blanket for example, it comes out looking "traffic cone" red. Actually most reds turn out that way. I have fooled with the chroma settings to little effect. I even tried cleaning the lense with steel wool as suggested in a diffrent forum, but all that did was scratch it up. What gives?
Hey sorry for the noob question. Im still waiting for my Barry guide :
I got my dvx100a a couple of weeks ago. and I am still having a hard time getting acurate reds. If I am shooting a burgandy blanket for example, it comes out looking "traffic cone" red. Actually most reds turn out that way. I have fooled with the chroma settings to little effect. I even tried cleaning the lense with steel wool as suggested in a diffrent forum, but all that did was scratch it up. What gives?
J_Barnes
Veteran
Re: reds and orange on DVX100a
That's not a noob question at all and it doesn't tire anyone to answer it.
Noob questions are:
"I want to make a movie, where do I start?"
"I just bought a DVX and I don't know how to use it, how do I make it look like film?"
"I heard you can build lights, how do you do that?"
"What's the best editing system?"
"PC or Mac?"
I don't know exactly why Reds are so hard to render accurately in NTSC video. Red is the shortest wavelength of the visible spectrum, so perhaps it's just a built-in defect in the standard. I honestly don't know exactly why it's like that, but it's pretty universal in NTSC.
You'd be surprised how many broadcast programs I used to see from major production houses that came with severe chroma problems (always in red).
If you're shooting dull and dark reds and still seeing them as traffic cone colored, you might want to investigate your setup a bit. I'd start with your playback monitor, make sure that you're close to an accurate calibration and that your "color" isn't turned up very high.
Most consumer televsions are biased way high on their preset settings so that they appear to be more vibrant and colorful when sitting next to their counterparts at Circuit City, so usually you've got to crank down the color and contrast and up the brightness a bit to get them closer to what could be considered a "production standard" monitor.
Once you've got that ironed out, you might want to dip into your camera settings. I don't own any video cameras personally, I always rent, so I don't have one here to reference for you...but if you search these forums a bit you'll find some great posts about suggested picture settings.
You can dial the color up and down on any camera, so you should be able to adjust it to suit your reds a bit. Otherwise, just avoid using vibrant colors.
Finally, I suspect that you didn't also use lighter fluid on your lens with the steel wool, so that's why you've got scratches. If you keep working on it, you'll finally be able to get through the glass entirely and find the secret stash of weapons-grade plutonium that powers the DVX.
That's not a noob question at all and it doesn't tire anyone to answer it.
Noob questions are:
"I want to make a movie, where do I start?"
"I just bought a DVX and I don't know how to use it, how do I make it look like film?"
"I heard you can build lights, how do you do that?"
"What's the best editing system?"
"PC or Mac?"
I don't know exactly why Reds are so hard to render accurately in NTSC video. Red is the shortest wavelength of the visible spectrum, so perhaps it's just a built-in defect in the standard. I honestly don't know exactly why it's like that, but it's pretty universal in NTSC.
You'd be surprised how many broadcast programs I used to see from major production houses that came with severe chroma problems (always in red).
If you're shooting dull and dark reds and still seeing them as traffic cone colored, you might want to investigate your setup a bit. I'd start with your playback monitor, make sure that you're close to an accurate calibration and that your "color" isn't turned up very high.
Most consumer televsions are biased way high on their preset settings so that they appear to be more vibrant and colorful when sitting next to their counterparts at Circuit City, so usually you've got to crank down the color and contrast and up the brightness a bit to get them closer to what could be considered a "production standard" monitor.
Once you've got that ironed out, you might want to dip into your camera settings. I don't own any video cameras personally, I always rent, so I don't have one here to reference for you...but if you search these forums a bit you'll find some great posts about suggested picture settings.
You can dial the color up and down on any camera, so you should be able to adjust it to suit your reds a bit. Otherwise, just avoid using vibrant colors.
Finally, I suspect that you didn't also use lighter fluid on your lens with the steel wool, so that's why you've got scratches. If you keep working on it, you'll finally be able to get through the glass entirely and find the secret stash of weapons-grade plutonium that powers the DVX.
Re: reds and orange on DVX100a
I have little problem any more with broadcast camera and reds. But that's a $30,000+ camera. DV & cheap cameras with 1/3" chips generally have problems with reds going too chroma. That's what you get for $4000. The previous suggestions of avoiding fire engine red, etc. is solid. If you can't, then try turning down the chroma in the menu and perhaps bringing it back up in post.
White balance becomes more critical here. I almost always use warmcards with betacam but not with these cheap cameras. Keep an eye on your white balance and the setup of your monitor. A good monitor that can be calibrated is a big help.
I have little problem any more with broadcast camera and reds. But that's a $30,000+ camera. DV & cheap cameras with 1/3" chips generally have problems with reds going too chroma. That's what you get for $4000. The previous suggestions of avoiding fire engine red, etc. is solid. If you can't, then try turning down the chroma in the menu and perhaps bringing it back up in post.
White balance becomes more critical here. I almost always use warmcards with betacam but not with these cheap cameras. Keep an eye on your white balance and the setup of your monitor. A good monitor that can be calibrated is a big help.
Jim Brennan
VHS Member Old Skool
Re: reds and orange on DVX100a
To me, a great value for the money shouldn't be called "cheap". I think "Inexpensive" has a better connotation. But that's just my opinion.
To me, a great value for the money shouldn't be called "cheap". I think "Inexpensive" has a better connotation. But that's just my opinion.
J_Barnes
Veteran
Re: reds and orange on DVX100a
I can certainly say from experience that blown out reds are very common, and certainly not limited to any specific price-point of camera. Obviously, chroma issues can pop up anywhere in the post chain in addition to in-camera recording...so it's as much how you handle the video after recording.
I've just seen it extensively enough to say with confidence that it's a very common problem, not limited to lower-budget productions. When I was working for the unnamed cable network, I was rejecting anywhere from 30-75% of prospective programming on a daily basis...the most common broadcast failure was red chroma.
Things are easier to keep in restrictions now that there are fewer TBC's in the production chain, but it's still wise to keep an eye on your vectorscope and do screen tests when something is in question.
I've been looking into the DVRack program that everyone's talking about on here, and it certainly seems to have a strong value for identifying these kinds of problems in your shoot before you record. You might look into downloading the demo version if you've got a laptop and see if it might be an asset you want to purchase.
I can certainly say from experience that blown out reds are very common, and certainly not limited to any specific price-point of camera. Obviously, chroma issues can pop up anywhere in the post chain in addition to in-camera recording...so it's as much how you handle the video after recording.
I've just seen it extensively enough to say with confidence that it's a very common problem, not limited to lower-budget productions. When I was working for the unnamed cable network, I was rejecting anywhere from 30-75% of prospective programming on a daily basis...the most common broadcast failure was red chroma.
Things are easier to keep in restrictions now that there are fewer TBC's in the production chain, but it's still wise to keep an eye on your vectorscope and do screen tests when something is in question.
I've been looking into the DVRack program that everyone's talking about on here, and it certainly seems to have a strong value for identifying these kinds of problems in your shoot before you record. You might look into downloading the demo version if you've got a laptop and see if it might be an asset you want to purchase.
Walter_Graff
Carbonite Member
Re: reds and orange on DVX100a
The color problems you are all talking about involve the color gamut of video. Red is a color that will often cause problems as a result. This has little to do with format. In the professional world we have the same problems with red using very expensive equipment.
The color problems you are all talking about involve the color gamut of video. Red is a color that will often cause problems as a result. This has little to do with format. In the professional world we have the same problems with red using very expensive equipment.
Re: reds and orange on DVX100a
last weekend my film crew and i drove out to ohio from philadelphia to shot interviews for a documantary we are currently working on. As we met the subject we were going to interview and follow, the first thing i noticed was that he was wearing BRIGHT red sweatpants and sweatshirt. It sucked, but there was nothing i could do. We filmed the interviews and shot over a few days in which he conituned to wear red (same clothes). Haha i couldnt get any luck. In either case the footage looks good but the reds are defenitly super bright, i think we are going to have to try to tone them down in post if possible.
last weekend my film crew and i drove out to ohio from philadelphia to shot interviews for a documantary we are currently working on. As we met the subject we were going to interview and follow, the first thing i noticed was that he was wearing BRIGHT red sweatpants and sweatshirt. It sucked, but there was nothing i could do. We filmed the interviews and shot over a few days in which he conituned to wear red (same clothes). Haha i couldnt get any luck. In either case the footage looks good but the reds are defenitly super bright, i think we are going to have to try to tone them down in post if possible.
Re: reds and orange on DVX100a
That shouldn't be too hard to do watson.
I believe part of the problem lies in the fact that video (as film can be) is much more sensitive to the blue end of the spectrum than the red. Part of the reason the blue channel is always so noisy is due to internal camera processing to keep the blue end in control.
It's too bad we have such poor long wavelength reproduction.
That shouldn't be too hard to do watson.
I believe part of the problem lies in the fact that video (as film can be) is much more sensitive to the blue end of the spectrum than the red. Part of the reason the blue channel is always so noisy is due to internal camera processing to keep the blue end in control.
It's too bad we have such poor long wavelength reproduction.
XCheck
Veteran
Re: reds and orange on DVX100a
[quote author=J_Barnes link=board=news;num=1099755857;start=0#8 date=11/08/04 at 06:51:44]I've been looking into the DVRack program that everyone's talking about on here, and it certainly seems to have a strong value for identifying these kinds of problems in your shoot before you record. You might look into downloading the demo version if you've got a laptop and see if it might be an asset you want to purchase.[/quote]
That's right. I was playing with MacBeth color chart and DVRack, and found I can get pretty good reproduction doing this:
Zoom in on the focus chart so you can only see the RGB and a couple of neutral color chips (black plus two shades of grey).
Look at the vectorscope on your DVRack. The three neutral color chips should produce a dot smack in the middle of the vectorscope - otherwise you are not properly white balanced. The Red, Green and Blue should be directly between the centre and one of the squares representing their colors. If not, play with chroma phase until you get it right. You can also play with color temperature to 'turn' the pattern around the centre.
Once you get the chroma phase right, you can play with chroma level - I'd actually managed to boost it to +4 without any bleeding, but many reds are more vibrant than the color chart chip, so don't overdo it.
You can also change framing to see Cyan, Magenta and Yellow chips only (and White plus two light shades of grey), and repeat the process to get optimal color reproduction across the whole color space.
It works with almost all lighting, as far as I can tell (I didn't try work lights, but worked for daylight, tungsten, and cool fluorescent).
It takes some time, so don't even start if you don't have at least an hour of free time
[quote author=J_Barnes link=board=news;num=1099755857;start=0#8 date=11/08/04 at 06:51:44]I've been looking into the DVRack program that everyone's talking about on here, and it certainly seems to have a strong value for identifying these kinds of problems in your shoot before you record. You might look into downloading the demo version if you've got a laptop and see if it might be an asset you want to purchase.[/quote]
That's right. I was playing with MacBeth color chart and DVRack, and found I can get pretty good reproduction doing this:
Zoom in on the focus chart so you can only see the RGB and a couple of neutral color chips (black plus two shades of grey).
Look at the vectorscope on your DVRack. The three neutral color chips should produce a dot smack in the middle of the vectorscope - otherwise you are not properly white balanced. The Red, Green and Blue should be directly between the centre and one of the squares representing their colors. If not, play with chroma phase until you get it right. You can also play with color temperature to 'turn' the pattern around the centre.
Once you get the chroma phase right, you can play with chroma level - I'd actually managed to boost it to +4 without any bleeding, but many reds are more vibrant than the color chart chip, so don't overdo it.
You can also change framing to see Cyan, Magenta and Yellow chips only (and White plus two light shades of grey), and repeat the process to get optimal color reproduction across the whole color space.
It works with almost all lighting, as far as I can tell (I didn't try work lights, but worked for daylight, tungsten, and cool fluorescent).
It takes some time, so don't even start if you don't have at least an hour of free time
disjecta
Lucky Duck
Re: reds and orange on DVX100a
[quote author=J_Barnes link=board=news;num=1099755857;start=0#4 date=11/07/04 at 13:55:40]Finally, I suspect that you didn't also use lighter fluid on your lens with the steel wool, so that's why you've got scratches. If you keep working on it, you'll finally be able to get through the glass entirely and find the secret stash of weapons-grade plutonium that powers the DVX.[/quote]
J_barnes, for the record, I love your posts
[quote author=J_Barnes link=board=news;num=1099755857;start=0#4 date=11/07/04 at 13:55:40]Finally, I suspect that you didn't also use lighter fluid on your lens with the steel wool, so that's why you've got scratches. If you keep working on it, you'll finally be able to get through the glass entirely and find the secret stash of weapons-grade plutonium that powers the DVX.[/quote]
J_barnes, for the record, I love your posts
G
Guest
Guest
Re: reds and orange on DVX100a
Jerry-
Nice info! One question I have...You mentioned that you were able to set up the camera for proper color rendering under various types of lights...but when you mentioned cool fluorescents I was surprised. Cool fluorescents dont have what is called a continous or full spectrum of light. In other words if you graph the lights ability to render various colors you would see serious spikes and valleys across the colors while natural daylight is pretty much perfect. So with this said how is is possible to get accurate colors under such lights? (And before someone mentions Kino Flos remember we are talking about Cool Fluorescents here.)
Jerry-
Nice info! One question I have...You mentioned that you were able to set up the camera for proper color rendering under various types of lights...but when you mentioned cool fluorescents I was surprised. Cool fluorescents dont have what is called a continous or full spectrum of light. In other words if you graph the lights ability to render various colors you would see serious spikes and valleys across the colors while natural daylight is pretty much perfect. So with this said how is is possible to get accurate colors under such lights? (And before someone mentions Kino Flos remember we are talking about Cool Fluorescents here.)
J_Barnes
Veteran
Re: reds and orange on DVX100a
True, but don't confuse white light with color reflection and absorption. White balancing simply adjusts the capture medium until a source of light is approximately balanced to white, but it doesn't always translate to accurate color reproduction.
As you say, the discontinuous spectra in some fluorescents leads to a disproportionate and uneven color reproduction within a scene, but you can still correct the actual light to an approximation of white. Even though the light appears white, you'll still see certain effects of the uneven spectrum in the way colors are reproduced, do to uneven absorption and reflection.
This shows most often in Caucasian skin tones, as there are two distinct bases to honkeys…a rosy-red and a yellowish-green. Red is the opposite of green, making those with red-toned skin appear slightly grey-based on camera. Those with the greenish base skin have the green tints compounded and appear slightly green based on camera.
It’s very slight, but its still there if you look for it.
True, but don't confuse white light with color reflection and absorption. White balancing simply adjusts the capture medium until a source of light is approximately balanced to white, but it doesn't always translate to accurate color reproduction.
As you say, the discontinuous spectra in some fluorescents leads to a disproportionate and uneven color reproduction within a scene, but you can still correct the actual light to an approximation of white. Even though the light appears white, you'll still see certain effects of the uneven spectrum in the way colors are reproduced, do to uneven absorption and reflection.
This shows most often in Caucasian skin tones, as there are two distinct bases to honkeys…a rosy-red and a yellowish-green. Red is the opposite of green, making those with red-toned skin appear slightly grey-based on camera. Those with the greenish base skin have the green tints compounded and appear slightly green based on camera.
It’s very slight, but its still there if you look for it.