RED Ranger For Sale / No Longer Just A Rental Item

[NorBro]

They're already selling a boatload, at least relative to the price.

Of course, a boatload of Rangers is probably still fewer than Black Magic's big Ursa sales

Didn't you purchase an AJA CION under your old company name? lol

The big URSA was way ahead of its time in 2014.

A lot of flaws, sure, but anything remotely close cost $20,000+. (FS7 was a high-end video camera, not cinema camera, IMO.)

 

[NorBro]

P.S. I was actually one of the few who had high hopes for the CION.

 

[Tamerlin]

Didn't you purchase an AJA CION under your old company name? lol

Yes, I did... finally transitioned to something smaller to make traveling with it easier.

The big URSA was way ahead of its time in 2014.

A lot of flaws, sure, but anything remotely close cost $20,000+. (FS7 was a high-end video camera, not cinema camera, IMO.)

Its biggest flaw was that it was designed after Alexas, which are mainly geared toward high end production, but priced and marketed for people who had no knowledge of high end production.

Failing to get the 4.6K turret out I suspect had more to do with not having enough Ursas in the field to justify the R&D cost than anything else.

 

[NorBro]

I 100% agree (including the part about the turret)...and that was pretty apparent based on most people complaining about its weight.

Image-quality was so good though.

 

[Tamerlin]

P.S. I was actually one of the few who had high hopes for the CION.

Obviously, I did as well.

I did talked to AJA about its future after contributing some footage to one of AJA's promos, and found out that the camera didn't have one. I'd hoped for a successor with an improved sensor and more compact body, with raw and HFR recording internal since none of the Cion's 3rd party support materialized, but they said it was done.

The PM that I talked to cited business partners not keen on AJA developing a competing camera, but I'm sure the less than stellar sales didn't help. Especially with BMD stomping it with the UM 4.6K before it even had a chance to gain any sort of foothold.

I got some great footage with mine before I sold it though.

 

[Tamerlin]

I 100% agree (including the part about the turret)...and that was pretty prevalent based on most people complaining about its weight.

Yeah... they missed the Baby Alexa part.

 

[NorBro]

On a side note, the Raven appears to be back in stock @ B&H for $960 off:

Limited supply...I'm assuming B&H bought the stock of someone after they struggled to sell them.

I owned the camera. And I liked it a lot, but it was too much for me.

The one thing I did learn is the RED name really does help you get work, which is one of the main reasons I imagine people invest in RED cameras.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...tal_cinema_710_0223_red_raven_4_5k_dsmc2.html

 

[Guest]

Yeah... we're getting there, but I don't think the problem is that cameras aren't good enough, but rather that they're actually too good for most.

Can you elaborate?

 

[Guest]

I reckon if Red made a Ranger type camera with all the buttons on the operator side, rather than the dumb side, they would sell a boat load.

Ah! I was all set to buy one and be happy, but now i can only think about what-if!

EDIT: i’ll be honest though, i prefer complex controls on the dumb side vs a control panel with a cable.

Also, most Red users control settings via the touch screen.

...but i do like having certain controls easily accessed on the op side, as i am not a super fan of the touch screen.

 

[Tamerlin]

Can you elaborate?

Capturing more detail highlights flaws in production, like sloppy (or no) makeup, cheap art direction, etc. It's easier to overlook those when the camera can't capture them.

Peter Jackson commented about this after he started using 4K cameras, and Ang Lee also commented about it during a presentation at NAB about "Billy Lynne's Long Halftime Walk." Makeup wasn't even an option on that production; it was too visible. The art department had to go back to the drawing board after seeing the first test footage.

 

[Guest]

Capturing more detail highlights flaws in production, like sloppy (or no) makeup, cheap art direction, etc. It's easier to overlook those when the camera can't capture them.

Peter Jackson commented about this after he started using 4K cameras, and Ang Lee also commented about it during a presentation at NAB about "Billy Lynne's Long Halftime Walk." Makeup wasn't even an option on that production; it was too visible. The art department had to go back to the drawing board after seeing the first test footage.

Thanks, and i get what you mean now.

 

[Tamerlin]

Thanks, and i get what you mean now.

That's also the real reason that so many low-grade wannabe indie filmmakers are clamoring for larger sensors -- the only thing that they know how to do to reduce how bad everything else they do looks is to have less of it in focus.

Not that they'll admit it of course.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Ah! I was all set to buy one and be happy, but now i can only think about what-if!

EDIT: i’ll be honest though, i prefer complex controls on the dumb side vs a control panel with a cable.

Also, most Red users control settings via the touch screen.

...but i do like having certain controls easily accessed on the op side, as i am not a super fan of the touch screen.

Best interface ever was on the Aaton Penelope and Penelope Delta. Small panel on the Operator side with basic indications and just a couple of buttons, big panel on the Dummy side. Navigation whee on the top of camera so reachable no matter what. Background color of screen indicated mode while the info displayed was still clearly visible. I think it was light blue in standby, green while rolling, flashing green when running low on film/memory or battery, flashing red when there was a problem. Absolutely best interface ever and hardly anyone ever got to see it.

 

[Guest]

Best interface ever was on the Aaton Penelope and Penelope Delta. Small panel on the Operator side with basic indications and just a couple of buttons, big panel on the Dummy side. Navigation whee on the top of camera so reachable no matter what. Background color of screen indicated mode while the info displayed was still clearly visible. I think it was light blue in standby, green while rolling, flashing green when running low on film/memory or battery, flashing red when there was a problem. Absolutely best interface ever and hardly anyone ever got to see it.

No doubt! A great design despite any limitations of film. Pretty awesome! Thanks for reminding us of such brilliant design! Digital has less limitations, but gets less right often.

 

[IronFilm]

Red Sensors:
M - discontinued
MX - discontinued
Dragon - legacy 6K mojo ASPH
Helium - s35 8k
Gemini - dual iso 5k ASPH
Monstro VV - “Vista Vision”
Whatever they put in the Raven

Raven was a cut down Dragon sensor, inside what was basically a DSMC2 body (but with a few more restrictions, for instance you were stuck with an EF Mount permanently).

Might as well have a barbed wire tattoo around your tripod head as well.

Am surprised RED hasn't released that.

 

[Razz16mm]

Raven is EOL. I think it is only still offered as a kit through Apple.

 

[Razz16mm]

Obviously, I did as well.

I did talked to AJA about its future after contributing some footage to one of AJA's promos, and found out that the camera didn't have one. I'd hoped for a successor with an improved sensor and more compact body, with raw and HFR recording internal since none of the Cion's 3rd party support materialized, but they said it was done.

The PM that I talked to cited business partners not keen on AJA developing a competing camera, but I'm sure the less than stellar sales didn't help. Especially with BMD stomping it with the UM 4.6K before it even had a chance to gain any sort of foothold.

I got some great footage with mine before I sold it though.

I thought AJA's implementation of the global shutter CMOSIS sensor was superior to BM's in most respects. Especially after firmware upgrades improved the available DR a bit. Would have been a good 4k match for my Bolex colorwise.

 

[John Brawley]

I thought AJA's implementation of the global shutter CMOSIS sensor was superior to BM's in most respects. Especially after firmware upgrades improved the available DR a bit. Would have been a good 4k match for my Bolex colorwise.

Think I’ll beg to differ. I thought they were poor cameras. That camera bombed and it’s because it’s pictures underwhelmed and never got much better. It’s like AJA gave up once they launched it and the very first (independent) reviews weren’t very positive at all.

https://www.provideocoalition.com/in-a-parallel-universe-aja-s-cion-is-amazing/

https://www.premiumbeat.com/blog/is-the-aja-cion-the-biggest-bust-in-modern-filmmaking/

https://nofilmschool.com/2015/03/cinema5d-aja-cion-review

I think if they’d made a camera that had nice pictures they would have sold more cameras. End of story.

At the time when they launched, there was a lot of VERY POSITIVE talk about how AJA had done this camera “right” with the camera bros loving it’s ergonomic design and talking up how much better the build quality would be compared to BMD.

I tried one for a while. It was massively front heavy and anything BUT ergonomic. They didn’t make an EVF, then also never finished half the announced “features” it was meant to have.

At the time BMD had the OG Ursa, and the Production 4K followed shortly by the Ursa Mini 4K which all shared the same sensor.

Ursa was also a total flop, but not nearly as much as Cion was I believe. In the end they slashed the price and still couldn’t move them.

I think this is where we say, lot of armchair quarterbacks but in the end, the sales of that camera reflected what people thought of it.

I know you love a global shutter above all else. But no way was that a good camera, especially for the price.

JB

(I STILL see URSA’s as practice cameras on Steadicams and at trade shows. I was at BSC a few months ago and there were at least 3 URSA’s still being used as demo cameras on various grip equipment.)

Oh... Ranger ?

Love how it went from a rental exclusive to anyone can own one in a matter of a couple of months....

I like what they have done though (but I’d still probably go DXL)

 

[NorBro]

The big URSA was my first cinema camera in late 2014. I worked more than I ever did in my life that year after, being booked more than 230+ days. Haven't worked that much since and imagine I never will nor do I plan to.

People were so impressed with it. "Can I touch it?"

Just this huge 20lb hunk of hardware with a 10" monitor and large green audio meters lighting up the side with sound, lol.

I know you weren't its biggest fan, JB - but that camera was iconic for its time.

Without evidence - and you'd know best - I am convinced its refrigeration cooling provided a cleaner image than the UM4K. ProRes 444XQ was so nice.

 

[John Brawley]

The big URSA was my first cinema camera in late 2014. I worked more than I ever did in my life that year after, being booked more than 230+ days. Haven't worked that much since and imagine I never will nor do I plan to.

People were so impressed with it. "Can I touch it?"

Just this huge 20lb hunk of hardware with a 10" monitor and large green audio meters lighting up the side with sound, lol.

I know you weren't its biggest fan, JB - but that camera was iconic for its time.

Without evidence - and you'd know best - I am convinced its refrigeration cooling provided a cleaner image than the UM4K. ProRes 444XQ was so nice.

Don’t get me wrong, I loved the camera itself. I wasn’t so much of a fan of the sensor though. Base 400 and the less DR compared to what I was used to.

Everyone laughed at it, till they used it. And then it grew on people. My favourite feature was the poo poo YOU, HERE’S YOUR STINKIN VU meters on the side that you could see from half a mile away after the complaining about small / NO vu’s on previous cameras

Everyone complained about how big it was but it was actually lighter than an Alexa. If you used it with an EVF it was balanced on your shoulder. Very low Center of gravity too. I could take my hands off and it would sit there. No way was that happening with a CION.

I loved what they were planing for it. It had cooling and processing to do 8K @120 FPS and that was in the DNG days.....that’s a lot of data....

I shouldn’t tell but I have a prototype that had the 4.6K sensor in it and they had made a version made from magnesium that was more than 30% lighter. But it was too late. The 4.6 sensor was going to take a long time (mine was riddled with problems) and the camera just wasn’t selling.


JB