Recording School Band Concert

M

mst3000

New member
Good Day:

I would like to film and record my son's band concert. I will be using my 7D for filming and an H4N to record the sound. The concert will be held in the school auditorium.

My question is, what is the best method for recording the sound. Should I just set the H4N on a stand near the middle of the band and use the built-in mics? Or should I use two external mics set apart from each other? I will just be using the 7D sound to help sync the H4N recording.

If using two external mics is better, what type do you recommend? Shotgun, hypercardioid, etc. My total budget for 2 mics is about $600.

Thanks for your input.

Dave
 
Showtime! Get some informed help to do the sound while you concentrate on the video.

Your son and the band won't want you do another one if you muck their sound up.

Cheers.
 
Can you go to a rehearsal and try the built-in mics with the H4n in various positions? We typically put microphones high up (on high stands or hanging from above) to get a better "view" of all the instruments from the microphones' POV. What are the acoustics like in the auditorium? Is it an old echo-ridden barn? Or is it a modern architecture with some accommodation of acoustics?

What kinds of things do you anticipate using microphones for? That would aid in recommending something to buy.
 
Yep I agree with Richard but on reflection, if you're thinking like me, then this is your son. Has he told the band you can do it? Can you?

I'd actually spend the bucks on going to a sound outfit and have them come and produce the sound. You can learn some stuff, hopefully get a great soundtrack and keep your sons esteem.

The band might pull the track off and make CDs, use it as demos for other gigs and you'll get more jobs.

Then buy the mics. Good luck.

Cheers.
 
I've done lots of recordings like these in college. Back then I was recording onto a DAT machine. I recommend you use a cardioid stereo pair up high on a stand above the band. I preferred the ORTF technique, but many people use XY. Something like the neuman KM184's worked very well for me. If you are going to use a good stereo pair of microphones, you owe it to yourself to use a good mic pre. If you want to go portable, then a Sound Devices MixPre-D is a good option. One, because you can come line out into your audio recorder...and Two: you can come mic level out into your 7D for reference audio. This is the setup I'd use if I had to do it today.
 
I've been doing this since I was in high-school (in the early 1960s) I bought myself three Sony ECM-22 mics and a Sony TC-250. In college I got a pair of Sony C-37A mics and a Sony TC-850.

You can learn a lot by just doing it. But don't wait until the actual concert. At the very least, record the dress rehearsal and try a some different mic positions.
(Where "mic positions" includes using the built-in mics).

A pair of KM184s, while very very nice, is about 3x your budget. A pair of Rode NT5 may be more your budget, with a pair of tall mic stands.
I have used Atlas MS25 with MS10 pipe extensions for almost 50 years. Still no new competitor to that great mic stand combo.
 
First, I want to thank everyone for their response. I really appreciate it. Second, I apologize for my slow reply. I was recently on vacation.

So, after contemplating my options, I think I've decided to go with a pair of Rode NT5's. I found a matched pair that was within my budget. I will be looking for some mic stands to help complete the job. T will definitely be doing some practice before the event. I've been given permission to record the rehearsals.

One last question. Does anyone have any experience using the Decca Tree method? I don't know anything about it but saw an article on it while doing research.

Could I use my Rode NT5's and the built-in mics on the H4N to do this? Should I even be considering this method?

Thanks,
Dave
 
The Rode NT5's are a good choice.
On the Decca Tree method: It generally works better in situations where the room has been acoustically treated or at least was designed to be acoustically friendly (i.e concert hall, studio hall). It's a little dated (got it's name from recording style done by Decca Records back in the day), but it still sounds pretty good, especially for large group performances. Basically you place the mics in a T shape formation, with the mics facing outwards from each end point on the T, facing outwards. Your two outer mics will have to be hard panned to Left and Right respectively and the middle mic (positioned at the bottom of the T) will be centered (even between L and R). You will have to turn down the middle mic just a tad to avoid weighting your stereo image to the middle, which will cause you to lose some of the "stereo surround" effect. The rigs for this that are prefabricated can get a little pricey, but if your handy with PVC, you can probably make a decent one (use the extremely thick grade PVC only) and make sure to use shock mounts if possible, although clips for the mics should do just fine as long as no one is touching the PVC and the PVC mount is completely stationary.

The H4n isn't terrible. In fact the mics are top aren't bad for a little hand-held recorder. While they verge on the line of professional quality, for what you are doing it should be fine. I'd try mic-ing up the band during rehearsals using multiple methods at different time. Try just 2 external mics, try just the two internal and try all 4 together. Don't forget that you can mix these together later too. If it were me I'd use every mic and track available just to make sure I don't miss anything, from any angle.
Hope this helps! :thumbsup:
 
mst3000 said:
First, I want to thank everyone for their response. I really appreciate it. Second, I apologize for my slow reply. I was recently on vacation.

So, after contemplating my options, I think I've decided to go with a pair of Rode NT5's. I found a matched pair that was within my budget. I will be looking for some mic stands to help complete the job. T will definitely be doing some practice before the event. I've been given permission to record the rehearsals.

One last question. Does anyone have any experience using the Decca Tree method? I don't know anything about it but saw an article on it while doing research.

Could I use my Rode NT5's and the built-in mics on the H4N to do this? Should I even be considering this method?

Thanks,
Dave
Click to expand...

Re Mike stands I bought a pair from Radioshack about three years ago that I've been happy with
 
Thanks for the help and suggestions. I'll be recording a rehearsal today and next Monday. I'm feeling much more confidant now than I was a couple of weeks ago. Thanks again. I'll let you know how it goes.

Dave

Edit - Just a quick note. I recorded my son with the H4N and NT5's practicing at home while filming with my 7D. When I listened to the recording from the camera and then the H4N recording I nearly fell off my chair! What a difference. I can only imagine what true professional equipment could do...in the right hands of course. I am super excited to start learning more about recording sound. Thanks again!
 
Last edited:
cactuskid said:
The Rode NT5's are a good choice.
On the Decca Tree method: It generally works better in situations where the room has been acoustically treated or at least was designed to be acoustically friendly (i.e concert hall, studio hall). It's a little dated (got it's name from recording style done by Decca Records back in the day), but it still sounds pretty good, especially for large group performances. Basically you place the mics in a T shape formation, with the mics facing outwards from each end point on the T, facing outwards. Your two outer mics will have to be hard panned to Left and Right respectively and the middle mic (positioned at the bottom of the T) will be centered (even between L and R). You will have to turn down the middle mic just a tad to avoid weighting your stereo image to the middle, which will cause you to lose some of the "stereo surround" effect. The rigs for this that are prefabricated can get a little pricey, but if your handy with PVC, you can probably make a decent one (use the extremely thick grade PVC only) and make sure to use shock mounts if possible, although clips for the mics should do just fine as long as no one is touching the PVC and the PVC mount is completely stationary.

The H4n isn't terrible. In fact the mics are top aren't bad for a little hand-held recorder. While they verge on the line of professional quality, for what you are doing it should be fine. I'd try mic-ing up the band during rehearsals using multiple methods at different time. Try just 2 external mics, try just the two internal and try all 4 together. Don't forget that you can mix these together later too. If it were me I'd use every mic and track available just to make sure I don't miss anything, from any angle.
Hope this helps! :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Thanks cactuskid. This definitely helps.
 
You didn't say what kind of band this is. The "school concert" made me thing acoustic but that could be completely wrong.

I did a bunch of concert recordings for a chamber music group. I ended up using a very nonstandard setup that is described in a thread someplace in the list.
It works well of smaller (less than ten or so) performers playing acoustic instruments. If you have a lot of amplified instruments you probably need to get a bit off the stage, or above it to get a balanced sound.

What I used was a pair of cardioid mics on stands quite wide (generally 5 to 10 feet farther out than the group) and at the lip of the stage. I would raise them till the capsule was at my finger tips and they were aimed to point at the center of the group and at the center of the instruments hight wise. This was often a cello in these concerts.

The logic was two part. One was we couldn't block the audience so something dead center would have to be either very high or very low. And the mics are roughly where speakers would be on playback so you get a really "realistic" stereo image.

The results are that playback on speakers really sounds great. Headphones can sound too wide, though you can bring it in a bit in post if you want. Mono compatibility is probably not very good but that was a non issue with us since there was never going to be mono playback, at least none we cared about.

X/Y and all the other set ups where the mics are close together sound rather lifeless in comparison. We did some A/B tests and the wide placement won every time.

It doesn't work well for amplified sound because it's too close and the speakers tend to either blow past and bee to low or nail the mic and be too loud. For amplified I did something similar but went 1/4 to 1/2 way back into the house (depends on the space obviously). At that distance you loose some of the dynamic "on stage" feel but that happens with overheads a lot of times also.

For amplified I think you need to go with the audience sound or use a lot of mics and mix down later. But I haven't done that many amplified concerts so others would probably have other options.
 
Thanks Noiz2. The concert is the full school band, about 50 kids. It will be in the school auditorium which has so-so acoustics. It will not be amplified. I'll be trying several different mic locations during practice and see what sounds best. Fortunately the school has a couple of mic stands that I can borrow. I'll have to see how high they go. Thanks again for the suggestions.
 
The other thing that can really help is a great limiter. Musicians tend to play louder in performance than in rehearsal. If you can borrow a Sound Devices MixPre for the shoot that would be a nice safety net. If not be a bit conservative with levels.
 
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