Recording On-Camera Host Audio at High Speeds (on a motorcycle)

ryangschultz

ryangschultz

Active member
Hey guys,

I have a pretty specific challenge I'm trying to address. I'm the cameraman for a motorcycle e-commerce company. My production team has spent the past year or so producing motorcycle reviews. In other words the manufacturer gives us a motorcycle, and we produce a video with a host reviewing the motorcycle. While I'm pretty proficient in cameras and support, I'm struggling with capturing the host's audio during the on-bike segments. Between running our Movi, communication units between a director/producer/host/camera bike operator/myself, and a number of GoPros, the setup is pretty complex and on set and I'm running it all. So I'm trying to find a backup or better audio solution if our current solution craps out, which is has in the past: not fun with all the stress associated with production to begin with!

Currently, I'm running a bluetooth communicator mounted in the host's helmet wirelessly recording his audio to a GoPro Hero3+ through a Sena Bluetooth Audio Pack. The bluetooth communicator does a fantastic job filtering out wind noise, and provides nice quality audio, but I have no way to listen to it while we're shooting. It's also consumer technology. I'm looking for a professional microphone and some sort of mobile field recorder that will be able to handle heavy wind noise, but still fit inside a helmet and not interfere with the host's comfort. And if that can be thrown wirelessly to a PA or AC to listen to the audio as we're recording, that would be amazing. So far in testing I'm having a hard time combatting wind noise, so I'm wondering if anyone out there has some creative solutions or has run small lav style mics in heavy winds (30-50mph when we're in motion).

Here's a link to one of our reviews so you can get an idea of how the audio currently sounds. The windscreen on each motorcycle we shoot has an effect as well, but overall the wind noise is filtered well.


Thanks!
Ryan
 
I've used a Tram (with foam windscreen and vampire clip) inside helmets without problems. You may have to experiment to find the best turbulence free placement.
 
Thanks for the reply Rick. Are you running that Tram directly into a wireless lav transmitter, or directly into some sort of recorder? I actually have a Tram I tested recently (with ok success) with a Lectrosonincs transmitter/receiver, but only inside a collar and at very low speeds.
 
It was a corporate gig I did quite few years ago, I had some Lectro 200 series at that time. We gave the rider a walkie with an ear piece for com.
 
With out knowing what your workflow is, I'm guessing this is fairly scripted. If so why not just replace the riding dialog? You can't really see his lips so sync would be a breeze.

Nice sound work. I'm guessing you were just using on camera but it came out sounding nice. We did a lot of ads and we would do a ton of coverage for whatever vehicle it was (sound only). Personally I would like less music and more sound but that is me.

If for some reason rerecording the on bike sound is a problem then I would do a wireless hop with a decent transmitter. BT is kind of wonky. This also would seem to be an ideal place to use one of those little Tascam recorders (that you have to order from outside the US) as a onboard backup incase of an RF hit.

Mic placement is going to be a challenge. I noticed he doesn't like having the visor down all the time so wind is going to be an issue and with the visor down you are going to get that boxy sound probably.

I would probably take some time and do some tests. One place that might work would be on the helmet up around his forehead. It's a place that is used on stage a lot of time, well in the hair but the helmet would get in the way. I would give it a try anyway. It gets you far enough away from the mouth and should be pretty wind protected.

On the other hand it might be too far from the mouth if going fast.

I would push to just redo it after the fact, dirty it up a touch so it's "realistic" and be done with it. Probably faster than trying to get decent audio in the field. You could even do it in the field just with out him driving the bike. You could just work it into the rehearsal. He says it then rides and says it.
 
Noiz2 said:
With out knowing what your workflow is, I'm guessing this is fairly scripted. If so why not just replace the riding dialog? You can't really see his lips so sync would be a breeze.

I would push to just redo it after the fact, dirty it up a touch so it's "realistic" and be done with it. Probably faster than trying to get decent audio in the field. You could even do it in the field just with out him driving the bike. You could just work it into the rehearsal. He says it then rides and says it.
Click to expand...

I would say he would have to have both hands on the handlebars if thats the way you go because the hand gestures would become a problem if you pre or post record.
 
Noiz2 said:
With out knowing what your workflow is, I'm guessing this is fairly scripted. If so why not just replace the riding dialog? You can't really see his lips so sync would be a breeze.

Nice sound work. I'm guessing you were just using on camera but it came out sounding nice. We did a lot of ads and we would do a ton of coverage for whatever vehicle it was (sound only). Personally I would like less music and more sound but that is me.

If for some reason rerecording the on bike sound is a problem then I would do a wireless hop with a decent transmitter. BT is kind of wonky. This also would seem to be an ideal place to use one of those little Tascam recorders (that you have to order from outside the US) as a onboard backup incase of an RF hit.

Mic placement is going to be a challenge. I noticed he doesn't like having the visor down all the time so wind is going to be an issue and with the visor down you are going to get that boxy sound probably.

I would probably take some time and do some tests. One place that might work would be on the helmet up around his forehead. It's a place that is used on stage a lot of time, well in the hair but the helmet would get in the way. I would give it a try anyway. It gets you far enough away from the mouth and should be pretty wind protected.

On the other hand it might be too far from the mouth if going fast.

I would push to just redo it after the fact, dirty it up a touch so it's "realistic" and be done with it. Probably faster than trying to get decent audio in the field. You could even do it in the field just with out him driving the bike. You could just work it into the rehearsal. He says it then rides and says it.
Click to expand...

Thanks for taking the time to watch a provide some feedback. For the most part your analysis is right on the money. Believe it or not, the main points are scripted, but all the narration is pretty much on the spot. We are doing multiple takes though that are fairly consistent. We've had to record audio secondarily and replace it in the past due to field recording issues, but it becomes a huge hassle with his hand movements, and a lot of helmets we use actually show more of his mouth, so it's not ideal.

All of the sound comes straight from the bluetooth device, it picks up a bit of the bike as well as his voice. But, I was also running a Rode mic on the Movi, and we use audio from the 4-6 mounted GoPros as well from time to time.

I could definitely see something like a Zoom recorder coming in handy, but that still leaves the question of monitoring live.

We run consistently with the visor up so the host can breathe easy on hot days, but it's also a little more personable with the audience. And you're correct, it can sound kind of muffled when closed.

All that said, I prefer to record it in the moment because it definitely results in a more realistic feel. The mixing required for faking it would likely be beyond the scope of producing these in a timely manner (our schedules are super tight for these things) as well as our editors sanity! I am however going to test a wireless lav all wind protected up on the chin bar of the helmet. I'm thinking if I actually run the receiver on the C100 (Movi mounted), then I could use a bluetooth transmitter on the C100 so another person could review the audio with nice quality bluetooth headphones in the lead vehicle. Not sure if range would allow for that, and bluetooth can be wonky, but hell I'm willing to try anything. All ideas are welcome!
 
If you mentioned a budget, then I missed it.

Zaxcom makes a product that is both a professional wireless microphone transmitter/receiver, PLUS a recorder built into the transmitter. That allows you to transmit/receive the audio, monitor it at the receiving/recording end, PLUS have a back-up recording at the transmitting end if something happens to the wireless link. Downside is that it is rather a high-end solution. But if it is important enough, and the budget permits....

There is also a budget equivalent just announced: the Juiced-link "Little DARling" remote-control/monitor recorders. ​http://juicedlink.com/collections/audio-recorders

Microphone selection, positioning, and wind protection is really an independent issue. It shouldn't be tied to your selection of wireless TX/RX, or recorder, etc.
 
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Having watched the video I'll tell you I feel the sound of the motorcycle needs some beefing up. if you're making this for people that are into motorcycles I think they would like to have that beautiful throaty motor sound a good motor has which will immerse the viewer even more as it rides underneath the guys voice. So I would mic the bike too ( which you don'thave to monitor as its just a effects track). And as Richard has said the Zaxcom and Juicedlink does the trick but if you need cheaper get a wireless setup like a sennheiser G3 and a Tascam Dr 10CS recorder (only purchasable in Europe - word is because of Zaxcom litigation). The Tascam has an audio out to go into your wireless. So you can monitor and record from the wireless setup and have a backup with the tascam which also has a 6db lower safety track for even another backup.
 
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We have seen stories of movies where the horses had multiple wireless mics.
One on the harness to record the mouth, bit, breath sounds, and another down on the bottom to record hoof sounds.
And, of course, one on the rider, as well.

There are several potential great places to mic a motorcycle. From the wheel/road sounds up by the front wheel, to the engine/transmission sounds, the chain, and, of course the exhaust sounds.
 
Ryan,

I ride with those SENA bluetooth helmet communicators and that was what I was going to suggest before I even read the next paragraph. Yeah, they sound really good.

Now, mine are at home right now but can't you ADD one more unit in? Don't the SENA's do groups? Pretty sure they do.
That way you could just leave everything exactly as it is and add your monitor in.
If that's what you're asking.
That's at least something that we know will work.

Also - are the connectors on the SENA tx/rx packs not standard? Been so long since I installed them in my helmets that I can't remember.
Because it's obviously not the mic that's giving the wind-free sound...it's the placement inside the helmet.

Would this be possible:
New LAV mic --> splitter --> goes into SENA tx/rx pack AND a Juiced-link "Little DARling" on the host.
This way the recorded audio avoids going wireless, but you can monitor wirelessly.

Maybe a little primitive approach, but after years in audio recording I always lean toward what will be the simplest and most foolproof.
 
You should be able to rent some Lectrosnics gear to evaluate. Contact mics may help acquiring audio from the bike. Is it a potentially noisy EM environment?
 
mico said:
I would say he would have to have both hands on the handlebars if thats the way you go because the hand gestures would become a problem if you pre or post record.
Click to expand...

Why would hand gestures make any difference? I've done a fair amount of ADR and that is normally with an actor doing all kinds of movement. Your not syncing arm movements your syncing lips. With the limited visibility of this actors mouth you would fly through this. They are going bluetooth so they are already out of hard sync and it's not bothering anybody so personally this would not take much longer than laying the rerecorded track down and making a few cuts to pull it back into sync. I would bet a sound editor with any experience could do it in less time than it takes to clean up the current tracks.
 
Hey guys, thanks so much for the info. This is all really, really helpful so far. I'm going to try to respond to everyone in one post so bear with me.

Richard Crowley said:
If you mentioned a budget, then I missed it.

Zaxcom makes a product that is both a professional wireless microphone transmitter/receiver, PLUS a recorder built into the transmitter. That allows you to transmit/receive the audio, monitor it at the receiving/recording end, PLUS have a back-up recording at the transmitting end if something happens to the wireless link. Downside is that it is rather a high-end solution. But if it is important enough, and the budget permits....

There is also a budget equivalent just announced: the Juiced-link "Little DARling" remote-control/monitor recorders. ​http://juicedlink.com/collections/audio-recorders

Microphone selection, positioning, and wind protection is really an independent issue. It shouldn't be tied to your selection of wireless TX/RX, or recorder, etc.
Click to expand...

Richard, I didn't even know these options existed, thanks so much. Can you help me pieces of gear from Zaxcom or JuicedLink we might actually need to achieve the recording and monitoring wirelessly aspect? Audio stuff this technical is very new to me, but the budget does exist.

For example, my ideal setup would be to record the host (even up to 2 hosts on camera), have that audio be recorded into our camera (Canon C100) as well as to the audio recording device for backup (as Zaxcom allows for!), but also allow for wireless monitoring of that audio by a separate crew member ahead of me and the host in the lead vehicle.

And I agree with your statement about mic selection, positioning, etc. That's something I will hopefully solve shortly in testing.

Having watched the video I'll tell you I feel the sound of the motorcycle needs some beefing up. if you're making this for people that are into motorcycles I think they would like to have that beautiful throaty motor sound a good motor has which will immerse the viewer even more as it rides underneath the guys voice. So I would mic the bike too ( which you don'thave to monitor as its just a effects track). And as Richard has said the Zaxcom and Juicedlink does the trick but if you need cheaper get a wireless setup like a sennheiser G3 and a Tascam Dr 10CS recorder (only purchasable in Europe - word is because of Zaxcom litigation). The Tascam has an audio out to go into your wireless. So you can monitor and record from the wireless setup and have a backup with the tascam which also has a 6db lower safety track for even another backup.
Click to expand...

Mico, I agree completely. Baby steps! We've been running with a pretty skeleton crew and I'm handling all the camera work, audio, communications, etc., but we're hoping to add a team member shortly that could definitely help me in the field to mic the bike. That would be incredible.

Ryan,

I ride with those SENA bluetooth helmet communicators and that was what I was going to suggest before I even read the next paragraph. Yeah, they sound really good.

Now, mine are at home right now but can't you ADD one more unit in? Don't the SENA's do groups? Pretty sure they do.
That way you could just leave everything exactly as it is and add your monitor in.
If that's what you're asking.
That's at least something that we know will work.

Also - are the connectors on the SENA tx/rx packs not standard? Been so long since I installed them in my helmets that I can't remember.
Because it's obviously not the mic that's giving the wind-free sound...it's the placement inside the helmet.

Would this be possible:
New LAV mic --> splitter --> goes into SENA tx/rx pack AND a Juiced-link "Little DARling" on the host.
This way the recorded audio avoids going wireless, but you can monitor wirelessly.

Maybe a little primitive approach, but after years in audio recording I always lean toward what will be the simplest and most foolproof.
Click to expand...

DPStewart, you're dead on. We actually do that currently and sadly, it sucks. I think because of the limitations of bluetooth technology, for every bluetooth communicator we add, we add more interference. It's an unbearable cracking noise. For the time being, I've actually use two separate bluetooth communicator channels, one for all team members to be able to communicate (5 total), and another to record the host into the GoPro with the Bluetooth Audio Pack (in other words, the host actually has TWO bluetooth communicators mounted in his helmet, but the one recording his actually audio is hidden from plain site so it doesn't look terrible on camera). That at least gives me a clean signal for recording, but I can't monitor it. We came back one shoot to find out for one of our segments, the Bluetooth Audio Pack was not in HD mode, so it was a wasted shoot. Or if by chance a battery dies or something malfunctions, I'd never know it. That scares me big time as we increase time and money spent on these productions.

And believe it or not, the bluetooth communicator mics seem to perform better than our professional lavs. Maybe I'm just using the wrong kind of lav that's too sensitive. A lot of the helmets we run have very limited space between the helmet chin bar and the host's mouth. With facial hair constantly touching the mic, our Tram or Lectrosonics lav seem to go nuts with scratching noises. However, the standard bluetooth communicator mics never seem to pick any of that up. It's crazy. I'm learning as I go, that's for sure.
 
When I was talking about the Tascam box, it sits between the mic and the transmitter. So you are still sending the signal to a recorder that you could monitor and you would also have a backup on the rider from before the wireless hop. You get to monitor and you get a direct backup incase of wireless drop outs.

I really would go with Lectrosonics or maybe the Sennheiser wireless and stay away from BlueTooth. BT has a short range and is more "line of sight" has a lag and is just generally less reliable.

You know your workflow so it's your call. But if you have the tie to track multiple cameras and multiple takes then you do have the time to drop in an audio only take.

But since I may not have explained what I was talking about clearly.

You shoot your take or takes. Stop, turn off the bike and with everything set up the same have him redo the dialog. Same mic, same helmet placement, you on the location, etc. Basically your sound is going to match except that you don't have wind noise. You can slap a heavily foamed mic someplace out of site to pick up the bike sounds, they are not very prominent from the POV shots now so that would probably be a plus. Those you could run to one of the cameras so you don't have to do any post sync on it.

In the worst case scenario you might have to edit gaps between words in really tight shots where the lips are clear, but 99% of the time you are going to be rough syncing the start of a sentence or phrase. You have to do some of that now anyway since you switch cameras when he talks sometimes.

Anyway this is just to make sure you knew how fast and dirty what I was talking about is. I'm not arguing that it is the right thing for you to do, but it is what I would be wanting to do in your shoes.

Things that would stop me would be (as producer) I didn't have an editor who could deal with basic sound editing and/or I didn't have a sound editor at all on the project. I would push for it because I think it would be better, cheaper, and faster than trying to salvage problematic production sound.

On the flip side if you find a way to get better sounding production in the first place? I'm just not sure it's going to be possible with out a lot of time prepping, expensive solutions, and some luck.
 
When you mic up the bike I would start with something in the back to pick up the exhaust. It's tempting to mic the engine but they usually sound pretty clickety and not what you think or want. Plus the vehicle will create a wind hole right behind it so you will get a lot less wind and a cleaner "engine" sound.
 
Noiz2 said:
When I was talking about the Tascam box, it sits between the mic and the transmitter. So you are still sending the signal to a recorder that you could monitor and you would also have a backup on the rider from before the wireless hop. You get to monitor and you get a direct backup incase of wireless drop outs.

I really would go with Lectrosonics or maybe the Sennheiser wireless and stay away from BlueTooth. BT has a short range and is more "line of sight" has a lag and is just generally less reliable.

You know your workflow so it's your call. But if you have the tie to track multiple cameras and multiple takes then you do have the time to drop in an audio only take.

But since I may not have explained what I was talking about clearly.

You shoot your take or takes. Stop, turn off the bike and with everything set up the same have him redo the dialog. Same mic, same helmet placement, you on the location, etc. Basically your sound is going to match except that you don't have wind noise. You can slap a heavily foamed mic someplace out of site to pick up the bike sounds, they are not very prominent from the POV shots now so that would probably be a plus. Those you could run to one of the cameras so you don't have to do any post sync on it.

In the worst case scenario you might have to edit gaps between words in really tight shots where the lips are clear, but 99% of the time you are going to be rough syncing the start of a sentence or phrase. You have to do some of that now anyway since you switch cameras when he talks sometimes.

Anyway this is just to make sure you knew how fast and dirty what I was talking about is. I'm not arguing that it is the right thing for you to do, but it is what I would be wanting to do in your shoes.

Things that would stop me would be (as producer) I didn't have an editor who could deal with basic sound editing and/or I didn't have a sound editor at all on the project. I would push for it because I think it would be better, cheaper, and faster than trying to salvage problematic production sound.

On the flip side if you find a way to get better sounding production in the first place? I'm just not sure it's going to be possible with out a lot of time prepping, expensive solutions, and some luck.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the added context. I didn't realize you meant putting the Tascam between the mic and transmitter, I could see that as a quick and dirty solution. It does still leave the question of wireless audio monitoring though, unless I'm missing something (I can't have headphone wires coming off the Movi mounted camera, I'm busy running the camera and communicating with team members. I'd prefer a separate person to be able to monitor the host's audio, ideally wirelessly in the lead vehicle since I shoot off another motorcycle to get close on tight roads).

I do like the idea of stopping after a take, killing the bikes, then doing a clean run through with the host. I'm sure our editor would appreciate that. He certainly has the chops to deal with audio editing we're talking about, but I'm also trying to be mindful of how quickly he has to pump these out. We're a tight knit team so we're always trying to iterate and speed things up, but still increase production quality. I also like the idea of micing the exhaust, I've thought about it in the past but with running and gunning the way we do, I just haven't gotten to it yet.
 
Well if you use a wireless hop you can have more than one receiver tuned to the same freq. so you could have someone else monitoring. Unlike BlueTooth which I believe can only pair with one device at a time, a traditional wireless like the Lectrosonics is essentially a small radio station. And like a radio station you can have ore than one listener.

For the exhaust we always reached for a dynamic mic. My "go too" mic was a SM58, almost indestructible and pretty hard to overload, plus pretty wind resistant. We would wrap it in foam and stick it someplace aimed at but not in the hot gas flow of the exhaust pipe. Now we were only doing sound so it didn't matter how it looked. You might be better off with a drum kit clip on dynamic. Smaller but probably a lot of the same qualities.

BTW here is the thread on the Tascam I was talking about
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?329382-Tascam-DR-10-Micro-Linear-PCM-recorder
 
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