Recording a concert from the soundboard - Why does my audio suck?

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percoplus

Active member
I am a videdographer who occasionally videotapes live bands. I usually try to get a combination of a line feed from a soundboard and/or ambient sound from camera mic or two condenser mics I set up in the room. I have two Canon XHA1s camcorders with two XLR inputs and a separate portable recorder, M-Audio MicroTrack II with two 1/4" imputs.

I am trying to understand why my recordings are weak and why there is so much noise. In another post, I asked about portable mixers and recorders. But first I think I should look at how I connect things up because there may not be anything wrong with my current equipment.

I read an article about balanced vs unbalanced connections:
http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/balanced-vs-unbalanced-interconnects

I realized I had used some unbalanced interconnects instead of TRS in the past. I want to know, is there ever a time when I should use unbalanced cables?

Since I still experience hum and noise problems with balanced connections (even with attenuators) what else can I do to troubleshoot? If the sound guy gives me a line and then pretty much tells me to get lost, how can I then know how to connect it to my equipment? Even if he gives me detailed information on the line he's feeding me, what else do I need to know?

I have recently collected an assortment of cables and adapters - XLRs, 1/4" 1/8", gender changers, Y-cables, etc. I suppose I can just try plugging in one after another until it sounds okay, but is there not some more scientific way to do things?

Is there some gadget available that could clue me in? After all, even if it sounds good, could it be better?

How do I know which attenuators to use? When would I need an isolation transformer?
 
I'll give you a couple quickies ..
Live PA guys are notorious for giving bad feeds. Why? Because
they cant hear the problems coming out of their PA speakers 50ft away from them.

It is VERY common for a PA soundguy to have zero comprehension of proper gain staging.
EX: They will have a very weak signal coming out of their wireless microphone receiver..
and then have to make up the different in volume by increasing their channel on their mixer.
Compound that if in addition to a low OUTPUT of a wireless system they also have the input gain too low and they end up having their channel fader pegged at the top
to bring the volume back up to a workable volume.
You're going to have a very noisy/hissy signal when you combine 24 channels of that.

They also wont hear all the buzz and 60hz hum they have in their system as well.
I'm not saying this is ALWAYS the case with every PA FOH soundguy but it's way more than it should be.

IF this is the case with a small amount of mic's, I would try to split the signal of the mics
before it enters his system. Of course with a full band you are screwed in that regard.

So with all that in mind, even if he has done proper gain staging to that point
now you need to get it OUT of his board at a strong (but not clipping) level
and into your camera without taxing your camera mic pres.

Also, if you are plugging anything in on your camera end...
camera charger, monitor, etc you can be causing the grounding problems
you might hear.

Every sound problem you hear has a distinct sound, hum, buzz, hiss, distortion...
its knowing how to quickly realize what the actual problem is and then know how to track it down.

As far as balanced vs unbalanced.
First you need to know if their board is even capable of a trs(balanced) output.

Balanced outputs are going to give you many less "noise" problems (hum, buzz)
over longer cable runs.
 
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Just to add to my above post with an example..
When going from a microphone right into your camera you have 1 gain stage to worry about.
Putting that 1 volume knob where the levels will be strong and not hissy but also not clipping.

Now lets use the example of the gain staging in a typical wireless vocal microphone on stage.
Every step here must be properly set up in order to achieve the best quality sound.
(just a couple of these are optional, most steps are always there)

1. The actual Microphone transmitter output volume.
2. The Microphone Receiver output volume.
3. Input Trim/Gain volume on the mixing console.
4. If there is a compressor or effect in the FX loop on a channel the input volume on the device
5. If there is a compressor or effect in the FX loop on a channel the output volume on the device
6. Channel fader volume
7. If bussed to a subgroup, the subgroup volume.
8. Overall mix volume on the console

9. if you're coming out of an mix output with its own volume control ..that volume.
10. your camera volume.

Crappy gain staging at any of those points will degrade your sound and give you
a hissy recording. Great isn't it?
 
Rippie said:
Every sound problem you hear has a distinct sound, hum, buzz, hiss, distortion...
its knowing how to quickly realize what the actual problem is and then know how to track it down.
Click to expand...

Thanks Rippie, were you trying to demoralize me on purpose? As if I didn't feel overwhelmed already. Lol!

Everything you said boils down to the single wire the man is going to give me. I have no control over what happens on the other end. Assuming you are the sound man, what information would you give to a videographer about the line you are feeding him?

So, hum, buzz, hiss, distortion all point to specific things? Hiss is caused by bad gain staging. What are the rest? Is there a cheat sheet around somewhere?
 
My point is if the guy hands you one wire and its already messed up because of
the above reasons nothing you do AFTER that single wire will make any difference.
It must be corrected back on his end.
If there is absolutely nothing you can do about it there isn't much I can tell ya.

If a camera guy gives you a feed from his camera thats totally out of focus
there is nothing you can do after that cable he hands you to make it better.
Either you accept the blurry picture or you make the guy fix it.

As far as the info a PA guy should give you when handing you that single wire
is pretty much down to whether its mic level or line level.

hum and buzz are usually grounding problems which sometimes can be fixed
using ground lifts on the electrical plugs or a ground lift barrel on an XLR cable that lifts the ground in the feed. Sometimes you have to isolate a particular piece of his gear
sometimes the entire system. The hiss and distortion are usually gain staging issues.

An option that I use a lot when faced with some issues is if there is an available AUX send
on the console (pre fade) I'll ask to use that and create my own mix bypassing some extra stages of gain
and having a little more control over other stages. Of course it will be more "dry"
if there are effects on other busses but thats the kinda calls you need to make in a particular situation.

I wish I could be more helpful but you really are at the mercy of the PA guy
and whether or not he is talented or just a guy working for a paycheck barely getting by.

If his feed is great there isnt much to it on your end.
 
In addition to all of Rippies excellent comments here are a few other things to consider.

The "level" of the band with whom you are working. If they're a low budget local act they may already have serious hum/buzz problems caused by crappy cables, etc. before they are even miced or DIed, and will be picked up by all of the other mics as well. I can even remember seeing Led Zeppelin at MSG in the '70's and the hum & buzz level was incredible.

The lighting system may be adding to the problem.

Many of the venues themselves have issues. The venue may have voltage or amperage problems. I once played a club where the all the electrical conduits for an old 20 story building were directly behind the stage; we could not get the hums and buzzes out of our system no matter what we did, and we were very quiet as far as unwanted electrical noises were concerned (really reeked havoc with my samplers).

Your wires may be (unknowingly?) crossing electric cables (under the floor, for example).

And, as Rippie pointed out, the sound mixer may not give a damn, and/or is not concerned with what you are getting; his only concern is the house mix.
 
Speaking as someone that has done a lot of FOH work, a sound feed for the video guys (particularly if they just show up without any sort of advance notice) is pretty much at the bottom of my priority list, that's just the way it has to be. FOH's job is the mix for the live audience. So whatever feed you get, particularly if it's a tape out or a mono send or something, is going to be mixed and EQed for the room.

That said, I always have at least one of two outputs (be they aux, matrix, or a lowly 2tk out) clear for the video guys that inevitably show up at the last second. I'll tell then if it's mic or line level and from that point they're pretty much on their own for adapting to whatever input they have on their cameras. If there's a problem, I do what I can to fix it, but understand where my priority has to be.

If (and this is a MAJOR 'if') they can be trusted around a board, I'll give up an aux or two and let them set their own levels, but I've got good enough equipment that I usually have extra busses to spare, the installed gear in many venues is rather limited.

Ideally, the video guys show up with an actual sound guy and gear of their own and I can give splits off my direct outs, but that's pretty rare.

(And yes, a lot of venue 'sound guys' are just some guy's buddy that found the tone knob on the hi-fi that one time and decided he should do sound.)
 
For many, many years "tapers" have made excellent recording of live bands without getting anything from the FOH console.

If the band sounds good in the house, you may get acceptable results by placing a stereo pair of small diaphram condensers in a sweet spot, and dumping that feed into a digital recorder. Even a Zoom H2 on a tripod has gotten me really good results.

I agree with most of the comments already posted. Both in regards to some sound "engineers" who not only DO NOT UNDERSTAND proper gain structure, but sadly, the method of lining up faders at 0db, and then setting trim to get a good mix is even being taught in some schools. This flys in the face of proper gain staging.

I also agree that from the FOH engineers prospective, getting a feed to the video guy is way down on the list of priorities.

I spent 15 years as FOH engineer for bands, and then later, for musical theatre and I've seen the spectrum of qualified and un-qualified FOH engineers.

I've also seen the other side where I've provided an appropriate level on a aux or matrix feed, and the video guy screws it up on their end by either not getting their level high enough, or hitting their limiters so hard the recording is botched.
 
i agree with jordan, video guys are my last priority. but now being a video guy i have good knowledge of what i'm looking for from the FOH guy and i can speak his language. sometimes i just use what i can and go home and redo the audio on an editor like Adobe Audition.
 
JordanBlock said:
Speaking as someone that has done a lot of FOH work, a sound feed for the video guys (particularly if they just show up without any sort of advance notice) is pretty much at the bottom of my priority list, that's just the way it has to be. FOH's job is the mix for the live audience. So whatever feed you get, particularly if it's a tape out or a mono send or something, is going to be mixed and EQed for the room.

That said, I always have at least one of two outputs (be they aux, matrix, or a lowly 2tk out) clear for the video guys that inevitably show up at the last second. I'll tell then if it's mic or line level and from that point they're pretty much on their own for adapting to whatever input they have on their cameras. If there's a problem, I do what I can to fix it, but understand where my priority has to be.

If (and this is a MAJOR 'if') they can be trusted around a board, I'll give up an aux or two and let them set their own levels, but I've got good enough equipment that I usually have extra busses to spare, the installed gear in many venues is rather limited.

Ideally, the video guys show up with an actual sound guy and gear of their own and I can give splits off my direct outs, but that's pretty rare.

(And yes, a lot of venue 'sound guys' are just some guy's buddy that found the tone knob on the hi-fi that one time and decided he should do sound.)
Click to expand...

I agree with the part "videoguys always show up the last second". I'm a soundguy myself and when I'm doing things for TV (like reports or things) I sometimes have to ask a mix out from the PA. But I always will ask it in a "calm" moment. Not 5 seconds before the start of the concert...
 
A thread that is very close to this one http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=216461

The Gist, don't use the board feed it's never going to be what you want because the FOH mixer is aiming at a different target. Most of the "problems" for you are either not very important to him (or pretty much unfixable by him) or actually what he's aiming to do. The later would be things like the sound you get being very "thin" sounding or very bass heavy, the former could include all the buzzes and hiss etc. In a big venue the house wiring is often loaded with hums and buzes. Comming in contact with it in any way passes it on.
 
Yep what Noiz2 said.

The job the live engineer is sound reinforcement so they mix to get a good sound from the stage as a whole (the sound of the bands amps and instruments as well as the FOH speakers). They aren't interested in how the 2 track out of the desk is going to sound alone because its not relevant.
The job of a live engineer is quite different to a studio engineer in that respect. In the studio the aim is to get everything represented and mixed down perfectly to those 2 tracks.

For example in a small venue the drums and maybe the guitar amp may not even be miced up as they are loud enough so they wont be in the mix apart from what other mics like the vocal ones will pick up.
Obviously the bigger the venue the louder it has to be so more instruments will have to be miced up so you may get better sound from the desk.

Your best bet i think, would be to have your own stereo mic set up facing the stage from an audiences perspective to capture the sound as a whole.
 
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