Recorder v Mixer

[graywolf]

Of course the answer is a mixer/recorder, but...

I sometimes wish I had one more track. Both my existing recorders and camcorders are two track. But, I may find out that if I had 3 tracks, I would sometimes be wishing I had 4.

So, I have been thinking of buying a used ENG mixer, or a Tascam DR70D. I think the mixer would be far more convenient to use, but the recorder more versatile. Unfortunately, the budget will not allow both options, nor even any kind of high-end option, so do not suggest a SD, please; because in an ideal world I would simply get an SD 633. At the moment I am thinking in terms of a beat up old Shure FP33 or the DR70D.

Of course without some idea of what I do, you can not make a meaningful suggestion, so...

Not into feature/narrative stuff. Kind of mobile documentary, semi-run&gun, interviews, and other in and out type of stuff. I use camcorders not DSLR's. Put the 'corder on the sticks as much as possible so prefer a shoulder bag option.

Suggestions?

 

[Rick R]

Sorry, I don't have any solutions. The FP33 does not record and has only two output channels. The DR-70 and most other budget recorders do not have a mixer.. even the ones that have an internal software mixer are not usable for mixing on-the-fly.
The budget priced F8 (with the latest software update) allows hands on mixing .. sort of.. but it can't adequately feed a +4 inputs (I'm not yet familiar with the new F4's features).

 

[drapeama]

If by "one more track" you mean, one more independent channel, then a multi-track recorder would be preferable.

If you only want more input, and you don't need to have independent channels recording separately, then a mixer will do the trick.

I picked up an old ShureFP42 mixer for 50$USD recently on ebay.

Works like a charm. Was intended mainly for LIVE event sound, so ch1/ch2 from the console to get a clean signal and ch3/ch4 to be used with microphones on stand for ambiance/crowd. 4ch input > 2ch output so it's already "pre-mixed" when recording.
That setup, recording with a Tascam DR-40 allow me to record the stereo mix from the mixer, and I'm also able to use the built-in mics from the recorder as additional channels. So I can record 4ch at a time: stereo "pre-mixed" and stereo from the recorder. that's an interesting solution for me, as I usually have the sound from where I stand (recorder's built-in mics) as well as a "pre-mixed" stereo sound from the mixer (console + ambient mics).

 

[OzGizmo]

You are the exact person that would benefit from the Zoom F4...... It will tick ALL your boxes (just have to weight a couple of months for it's release)
With the F4 on the horizon I wouldn't send a dime on any other combination at the moment.

 

[graywolf]

You are the exact person that would benefit from the Zoom F4...... It will tick ALL your boxes (just have to weight a couple of months for it's release)
With the F4 on the horizon I wouldn't send a dime on any other combination at the moment.

Nope, $650 is out of the budget for the foreseeable future. Maybe, I should have mentioned that $300 is about the max I can come up with. It does sound interesting however.

The Fostex ENG mixer/recorder sounds interesting too but it is a couple of hunderd too much.

I guess another thing I should mention, the problem I see with the DR70D is it does not have XLR outputs.

I do miss being in the big city where I could just go down and check all these things out in person.

 

[Noiz2]

Assuming your budget is around $250 (what a DR70d costs) you are in a hard place.

As a general thing a quality mixer will out last your recorders since technology will change and there is just a lot more that can/ will go wrong with a recorder.

An old Shure would be so low on my list that... it might be looking up at the battery powered Behringer "mixer". All of those older ones I have listened to were VERY noisy compared to what you can get in very cheap gear today. You could give it a listen but I doubt you will be happy.

A quality field mixer takes a big bump from two tracks to three. But I would be looking at small used gear sold through someplace like Trew. You can get some great deals on eBay but if you don't know who you are dealing with etc. it's hard to know how much abuse something has had. With sound shops like Trew that will do consignment sales you can be pretty sure that the description is acurate and that the gear works. Also a lot of it is from working professionals so while the case might have a lot of wear the odds are good that nothing really damaging has happened to it.

I saw a MixPre going for $300usd the other day.

If you can make it to the price of the F4 when it comes out that looks to be a really good choice, but it is more than double what it sounds like your willing to pay.

 

[drapeama]

You are the exact person that would benefit from the Zoom F4.

Unfortunately, I'm not a fan of Zoom products, based on my personal experience.
But if the preamps are great, then it might be a good solution indeed. One device for all purposes, not too bulky. But again, it's pricey!

 

[Noiz2]

Unfortunately, I'm not a fan of Zoom products, based on my personal experience.
But if the preamps are great, then it might be a good solution indeed. One device for all purposes, not too bulky. But again, it's pricey!

I'm sorry but get some perspective. A good field recorder cost over $10,000 not very long ago. Last year the cheapest multi track field recorder would have been the DR-680, with no time code, one track at a time level setting and really bad battery life, 4 XLR ins and a higher price tag.

What actually compares to the F4? other than the 680 you have to hit some of the SD products in the $5K range. So you can say anything you want about Zoom, my personal experience doesn't incline me to trust in their quality, but "pricey" is not a complaint till you can find something comparable at less than 5X the price.

You can say "over my budget", but not pricey. I paid more for my MixPre, the F8 is less than a microphone in the upper mid price range. The F4 is slated to cost less than most peoples boom mic.

 

[drapeama]

I'm sorry but get some perspective. [..] You can say "over my budget", but not pricey.

You get a point.

 

[graywolf]

I do have the idea that all the low end stuff has poor quality control. Testing every item before it goes out the door is expensive. So let the customers test them. You can tell that is the way it is because all those companies have liberal return policies. The problem for us is that we get stuck with the return shipping if we do not have a B&M store nearby, but that is probably less than the price increase would be for something thoroughly tested before shipment from the factory.

I used to work on robotic production equipment; out of the machine, into the box, and onto the shipping pallet. Oh, there is usually some kind of basic robotic test preformed by the production machine, but it is not the same as a true quality control test. And then, when things are built to a price point they leave all kinds of things out. Like, maybe, input and output transformers, a basic RC circuit is much cheaper. If it can be done with software, why waste money on expensive mechanical components?

So, I do understand the tradeoffs involved. Problem, for me, is I only have my Soc Sec for income.

 

[Noiz2]

Well I would suggest that like planning a film or post we start at the end and work backward.

What exactly are you trying to do? I take it that this is not something you are doing for income so what kinds of projects are you going to use this for?

I have worked professionally in film and theatre for a bunch of decades and I don't own a multitrack field recorder. The few times I have needed one I used BoomRecorder, excellent software but not really over the shoulder.

If you don't need to work out of a bag then the price tag drops quick. You probably have no need for TC. TC is fun to have but out side of post films never used to use it much. With big films being shot digitally that may well have changed but 99% of the folks who insist on TC don't in the end use it. Most films have been recorded on one or two tracks, again these days a big film may well lav everyone on general principals. But big film practices are based on very different economics than everything else in the world and rarely make sense for small budget operations. On a low budget film the last thing I want to see in sound post are a bunch of tracks from production. I'm not billing by the hour and a low budget crew is lucky if they have the equipment, manpower, and time to get more than two decent tracks. I have had films send me 8+ tracks of garbage more than once. It's not a help. I have to listen to it just to make sure it's all as bad as the first tracks are.

My point is you probably don't need more than two tracks and at two tracks you don't need a mixer.

I would also question the need for XLR outs. Why? On a professional gig yes you don't want anything pulling out and getting you fired, but outs? Who cares if your recorder doesn't have XLR outs? I'm not doing a real time transfer I'm copying your card. If it's to go to the camera again doesn't really matter, it's a guide track use an adapter or better go in the RCA ins.

 

[graywolf]

Well I would suggest that like planning a film or post we start at the end and work backward.

OK.

What exactly are you trying to do? I take it that this is not something you are doing for income so what kinds of projects are you going to use this for?

Covered that in the OP. Needless to say I am not going to be making "movies".

I have worked professionally in film and theatre for a bunch of decades and I don't own a multitrack field recorder. The few times I have needed one I used BoomRecorder, excellent software but not really over the shoulder.

If you don't need to work out of a bag then the price tag drops quick. You probably have no need for TC. TC is fun to have but out side of post films never used to use it much. With big films being shot digitally that may well have changed but 99% of the folks who insist on TC don't in the end use it. Most films have been recorded on one or two tracks, again these days a big film may well lav everyone on general principals. But big film practices are based on very different economics than everything else in the world and rarely make sense for small budget operations. On a low budget film the last thing I want to see in sound post are a bunch of tracks from production. I'm not billing by the hour and a low budget crew is lucky if they have the equipment, manpower, and time to get more than two decent tracks. I have had films send me 8+ tracks of garbage more than once. It's not a help. I have to listen to it just to make sure it's all as bad as the first tracks are.

My point is you probably don't need more than two tracks and at two tracks you don't need a mixer.

Well, I have occassionally wanted more than 2 mics hot. I do have a mixing deck I could haul around, but that would be kind of inconvient and limited to places where I have wall power.

I would also question the need for XLR outs. Why? On a professional gig yes you don't want anything pulling out and getting you fired, but outs? Who cares if your recorder doesn't have XLR outs? I'm not doing a real time transfer I'm copying your card. If it's to go to the camera again doesn't really matter, it's a guide track use an adapter or better go in the RCA ins.

Well, my ancient camcorders have a choice of the Sony XLR adapter which is OK, or the in camera mini-jack which are terrible. Of course there are adapters for just about anything.

But, I have been thinking along your line, that I really ought to see just what I can do with what I have. Actually, this question came up in my mind wasting time while I wait for the softie thingie for my AT4073A to come in. And part of it is from thinking I ought to get a couple of wired lavs (I do have a radio lav), but they will have the same problem that wired interview mic's have, cables running across the side walk with out safety people or permits.

Of course, I do realize that what I am doing is coming up for reasons not to go out an try to find people interested in working with me. Far easier to pretend I do not have enough kit to do the job. Funny thing is that before I became disabled, old, and broke I would not have hesitated for a minute, just grabbed whatever I had and headed out the door. I suspect being disabled, old, and broke are just another of those excuses I have become good at.

So, what I really need to buy is some motivation...

 

[Heezzi]

Of course the answer is a mixer/recorder, but...

I sometimes wish I had one more track. Both my existing recorders and camcorders are two track. But, I may find out that if I had 3 tracks, I would sometimes be wishing I had 4.

So, I have been thinking of buying a used ENG mixer, or a Tascam DR70D. I think the mixer would be far more convenient to use, but the recorder more versatile. Unfortunately, the budget will not allow both options, nor even any kind of high-end option, so do not suggest a SD, please; because in an ideal world I would simply get an SD 633. At the moment I am thinking in terms of a beat up old Shure FP33 or the DR70D.

Of course without some idea of what I do, you can not make a meaningful suggestion, so...

Not into feature/narrative stuff. Kind of mobile documentary, semi-run&gun, interviews, and other in and out type of stuff. I use camcorders not DSLR's. Put the 'corder on the sticks as much as possible so prefer a shoulder bag option.

Suggestions?

If you use a Camcorder, you are probably better off getting a FP-33. You can find them pretty cheap on Ebay. The noise probably won't be on the level of a SD but since you are doing Docs, you can get away with it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Shure-FP33-...996702?hash=item3acc9dcc5e:g:rWAAAOSwzaJX2oX5

 

[Noiz2]

OK.



Covered that in the OP. Needless to say I am not going to be making "movies".



Well, I have occassionally wanted more than 2 mics hot....

OK yes I missed that. Having done a fair number of documentaries I have never recorded more than two tracks. I think you may have picked up on something when you talked about going with what you have.

What I do carry often is a second recorder. I'm doing it as a backup but I have broken it out when I was set up for one thing with the main system and suddenly the line producer wants to shoot a pickup interview. This was much more reality TV than documentary. Also used it on a music thing when the system that was supposed to be recording the music (not me or mine) decided not to work. I used both systems and did sync manually in post.

From everything you have described If I bought anything it would probably be the DR701 and an Mini to double XLR cable. The camera is a guide track and you are going to use the recorders tracks so mixing isn't an issue.


FYI you talked about the style of what you are doing but if we are going to start at the end we need to actually start at the end. What is this all for? What standards do you need to meet? Standards for web video is a lot different from big screen or even broadcast.

 

[OzGizmo]

I would also question the need for XLR outs. Why? On a professional gig yes you don't want anything pulling out and getting you fired, but outs? Who cares if your recorder doesn't have XLR outs? I'm not doing a real time transfer I'm copying your card. If it's to go to the camera again doesn't really matter, it's a guide track use an adapter or better go in the RCA ins.

In what I do XLR's out are critical..... Live news / SNG and direct to camera. Most TV networks want the audio to be on the same file as the video, this speeds up editing and getting the material to air.
If you are going to do location work seriously first find out what the production work flow is REALLY like not what you imagine it to be.
The $$$ rules if you are handing up material that is different than a clients 'normal' workflow you are not going to be used on a regular basis.

 

[Noiz2]

In what I do XLR's out are critical..... Live news / SNG and direct to camera. Most TV networks want the audio to be on the same file as the video, this speeds up editing and getting the material to air.
If you are going to do location work seriously first find out what the production work flow is REALLY like not what you imagine it to be.
The $$$ rules if you are handing up material that is different than a clients 'normal' workflow you are not going to be used on a regular basis.

Um yes, but did you read the OP's posts? He is not doing what you are doing. I was answering his question not making a general statement that applies to every situation.

One thing that happens on forums sometimes is person A asks a question and then everyone posts answers that are very specific to their needs and have nothing to do with the OP's needs. I have certainly been guilty so I'm not pointing fingers but if you look back over this thread you will see why I said what I said.

As a different perspective many FX recordists have not used XLR's every where. Portable equipment that had XLR's cost more that it was worth for many FX recordists (unlike production recordists) and things like Sony Walkman DAT's were very popular paired with a really good mic pre. So that is a mini plug in, something you wouldn't be caught dead with in production. I believe Chris Boyes's rig for Jurassic Park had RCA between the pres and the recorder. Alan Splet used a cassette deck to record wave sound that were used in The Black Stalion. None of that would be acceptable in production or ENG.

My point is that this thread is NOT about ENG or "serious" production work, so while I completely agree with you it's not pertinent to this thread.

 

[OzGizmo]

Yes I understand where your coming from, let me tell you about a young sound guy locally.

He went to film school and upon completion he was looking forward to a career in film sound and bought himself some second hand lectro radio mics, Rode NTG3 / blimp and Zoom H6 (which was better than the H4n at film school), he then put himself out there as a location sound person and took a job of recording a training session for teachers, he turned up with his kit and tried to do the job. He delivered up his files for post production and thought it was OK but soon after had some feedback from the producer about not being able to mix just a couple of mics direct to camera and was never hired again by that company.

The basis of the story is that many new people into the industry have preconceived ideas of how things are done and then buy gear to suit their ideas without actually knowing how things are done in real life (and not film school shoots) and often hate a lot of $$$$$ on gear that is just wrong.

Whenever you buy gear you should look at the most options and not just limit your kit to what you 'want now' rather than looking 'toward the future'.

And what happened to the young person that I know...... He bought a SD 664 and more Lecto gear with a bank loan and now does BOTH film and broadcast........ And going well.

And thats why for this thread I suggested a new Zoom F4, the new low cost mixer / recorder that meet the OP needs and also gives them a future for gear usage.

 

[Noiz2]

The OP is a senior and is living on social security, he is NOT someone starting out and heading for a career in sound.

As I said I agree with everything you are saying but it has virtually nothing to do with this particular situation. He can not get an F4 since they don't exist yet and it's over his fixed income budget. He is not looking to move on to a career in sound. What he is doing is OMB personal projects on old SD camcorders.

So while your advise is completely valid for the people you are talking about, they are not the OP.

And that was my point. Look at his other posts, there are not that many because he's new to the forum. He is not who you think he is and your advice while great for who you think you are talking to is not great for who you are actually talking to.

 

[graywolf]

Guys, guys, no need to argue, you are both correct.

While Noiz is correct on my situation. Gizmo is also correct. I want to be able to do at least a semi-professional job of it. I deal with the budget by using old equipment. The Sony DSR-PDX10's were, at one time, the Reporter with a Camcorder's standard broadcast kit. These days most would call them obsolete semi-pro camcorders. That is why I invested in the AT4073A (see the other thead), and am wondering whether a older pro mixer like the FP33, or a new recorder like the DR70D (in this thread) would work better for me.

However, I just discovered that the DR70D has those digital infinitely rotatable gain knobs, I think that puts it out of any possibility of being used as a mixer/recorder to my way of thinking. Knowing about where the gain is set by the knob's position seems to be important for quick gain changes. That is kind of sad, as I could use a digital recorder for other stuff. Since I have several microphones XLR is kind of important to me.

The local library is asking me to shoot a kids' event next month for a one minute spot on their website and youtube, if I don't feel I can do at least a somewhat professional looking job of it, I will have to turn it down. But it ought to be fun if I can do it.

 

[wjauch]

Just in case it helps the OP, Tascam DR60d MkII is currently on special for $125 at Adorama after $30 rebate. It certainly is within his price target, as 4 inputs albeit only 2 as XLR, records 4 tracks AFAIK. No XLR output, just 1/8". He could probably sell it for the same price or close to it on eBay if not to his liking.
http://www.adorama.com/tsdr60mkii.h...t&utm_medium=Affiliate&utm_source=rflaid62905
rebate download link is on this page also