Questions about mics and preamps for H4N

makkea

makkea

Member
Hi there, community.
I'm starting to shoot my first shorts and until now everything has been fine, I'm making progress. The fact is that I need new audio equipment.
I have a H4N and I want to use it (I'm not buying another recorder). Then it comes the first matter: which mics to use.
I know this has been talked many many times here, but after reading LOTS of topics I haven't arrived to a conclusion.

I'm on a really tight budget so I can only spend 175$-225$ (the less the better) on the mics.
My first idea was to get a shotgun microphone, but now I've seen that they can not be used in every situation (they are not good for insides).
Soooo, I read that what I would need are a shotgun and a supercardioid mics. What do you think it would be better:

a) Buying a more expensive shotgun mic (like NTG-2) and use it in every situation.
b) Buying 2 cheaper mics (I wouldn't know which ones to pick, please tell me).

The second fact is that, if I chose the NTG-2 (by now I think it's the best option, if it's not please tell me), I would need some kind of preamp to get some extra level (that's what I've read).
I've found some REALLY cheap preamps, such as this ones:

ART Tube MP
FEL Minimic Booster

And the Behringer MICxxx ones (not THAT cheap, what do you think of them?):
Behringer MIC100
Behringer MIC200
Behringer MIC800
Behringer MIC2200

I also have a Presonus Audiobox USB (it guves decent quality sound, or at least that's what I thought when I last used it), but I don't know if it can be used as a preamp (I think it actually is).
Link to its tech specs: presonus AudioBox techspecs

I apologize for my ignorance and this large amount of questions.
Thanks a lot in advance!!
 
I think you'd be better off with a single Rode NTG-2, rather than two lesser quality mics. If anything, buy additional wind protection for the mic if you plan on shooting outdoors. I would also suggest getting the microphone and try using it before you bought an additional preamp.
 
Sam Mallery said:
I think you'd be better off with a single Rode NTG-2, rather than two lesser quality mics. If anything, buy additional wind protection for the mic if you plan on shooting outdoors. I would also suggest getting the microphone and try using it before you bought an additional preamp.
Click to expand...

Thanks. If I finally go for the NTG-2, I'm planning to get the SM4 support, the Rode boompole and de Rode deadcat.
Any other shotgun mic option? I mean, one which is more or less the same price but louder
 
Some other decent shotgun mics for the money include:
AT-897 (like the NTG2 it has battery power when you need it)
AT-875 (a very compact shotgun that hits above its weight)

Not sure what level you want to play at, but most here would consider the NTG2, or the mics I mentioned a minimum for decent shotguns. If you want to go the small condensor route, the Oktava Mk012 is a very decent base level. Others may differ on that minimum level and I'm sure if you dig around, you can find some bargains. You might also consider used. For sure, you will spend about as much on a pole, mount, and wind protection as the mic, so figure that into the final cost = around $500. You might want to look at K-tec aluminum poles instead of the Rode. If you can only buy one mic, compromises will be need to be made to avoid the weaknesses of that mic which will take some planning and or testing on your part. The NTG-2 has come up here on this board many time as being a poor match for gain with the Zoom recorders. The AT mics I mentioned are OK but not great with my DR100. If you step up to something like a NTG-3, you would be golden since it has much higher output. The reality is if you are going to stick with the Zoom, a mixer might be in your future. You might consider a stand alone pre-amp, but unless you buy something good like a Sound Devices, it usually just leads to more frustration. A mixer offers much more than just better pre-amps and would be the base of your future kit. But for now, it would bust your budget.

A good rule of thumb for your budget is to match the value of your audio kit to your cam (+lenses). If you upgrade your cam....you get the idea. You may not want to hear that, but bad audio will RUIN you video. Did I say RUIN your video, yes I did.

What kind of cam are you using? If it is a dslr, you may want to look at the (GoPro) mic review just posted by Chad Johnson. The same mics (with built in pre-amps) will work with your dslr via 1/8" plug and no XLR power. This type of mic will limit you in several ways, but a weak shotgun into a Zoom will limit you also. If you are using a real video cam of decent capability, most have more powerful pre-amps than the cheapo recorders. They may not be as clean, and record at 16/48, but you won't need an additional pre-amp to get decent audio levels (think Panna or Sony cams like a HPX, HVX, HMC, EX1 which all have phantom power). The recording quality of these is plenty good enough for voice video.

I should just save this sermon since I have re-broadcast the same basic message about a hundred times.

Grant
 
ggrantly said:
Some other decent shotgun mics for the money include:
AT-897 (like the NTG2 it has battery power when you need it)
AT-875 (a very compact shotgun that hits above its weight)

Not sure what level you want to play at, but most here would consider the NTG2, or the mics I mentioned a minimum for decent shotguns. If you want to go the small condensor route, the Oktava Mk012 is a very decent base level. Others may differ on that minimum level and I'm sure if you dig around, you can find some bargains. You might also consider used. For sure, you will spend about as much on a pole, mount, and wind protection as the mic, so figure that into the final cost = around $500. You might want to look at K-tec aluminum poles instead of the Rode. If you can only buy one mic, compromises will be need to be made to avoid the weaknesses of that mic which will take some planning and or testing on your part. The NTG-2 has come up here on this board many time as being a poor match for gain with the Zoom recorders. The AT mics I mentioned are OK but not great with my DR100. If you step up to something like a NTG-3, you would be golden since it has much higher output. The reality is if you are going to stick with the Zoom, a mixer might be in your future. You might consider a stand alone pre-amp, but unless you buy something good like a Sound Devices, it usually just leads to more frustration. A mixer offers much more than just better pre-amps and would be the base of your future kit. But for now, it would bust your budget.

A good rule of thumb for your budget is to match the value of your audio kit to your cam (+lenses). If you upgrade your cam....you get the idea. You may not want to hear that, but bad audio will RUIN you video. Did I say RUIN your video, yes I did.

What kind of cam are you using? If it is a dslr, you may want to look at the (GoPro) mic review just posted by Chad Johnson. The same mics (with built in pre-amps) will work with your dslr via 1/8" plug and no XLR power. This type of mic will limit you in several ways, but a weak shotgun into a Zoom will limit you also. If you are using a real video cam of decent capability, most have more powerful pre-amps than the cheapo recorders. They may not be as clean, and record at 16/48, but you won't need an additional pre-amp to get decent audio levels (think Panna or Sony cams like a HPX, HVX, HMC, EX1 which all have phantom power). The recording quality of these is plenty good enough for voice video.

I should just save this sermon since I have re-broadcast the same basic message about a hundred times.

Grant
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot for your response, Grant.
I had already heard of those two microhpones. The 897 is a bit more expensive than what I can afford, but the 875r is an option to take into consideration. The NTG-3 is definetely out of my budget options, and same for the K-tek equipment, I've looked at it and it's quite expensive (what's wrong with the Rode Boompole?). I've discarded to get 1/8" mics because of the much lesser quality of sound (I've seen videos in youtube which show that).

I'm using the Canon T3i (600D), which is giving me good results. I know I must expend more or less the same into audio than into the camera, and so I'm planning to do.
About the fact that a shotgun mic can be used in different environments if you know how to do it, I must say I had already heard it in various occasions, I think it's gonna be matter of practice.

Finally, could you recommend me a good mixer? (I understand preamps alone are not that good). And what do you think of my Presonus Audiobox? (see link in first post) Could I use that as the mentioned mixer? (I don't actually know how to call it, wether preamp or mixer).

Again, a million thanks for your patience.
 
Have you considered renting what you need? As you have probably already realized, budgets as low as this requires you to make a lot of compromises in quality or ease of use. If it's only for a few days, renting a good mic shouldn't cost you more than buying a not so good one, and then you wouldn't need a separate preamp.

Also, depending on where you are, many places have institutes that can lend basic equipment like this to non-profit or student projects.

Good luck to you!
 
Jema said:
Have you considered renting what you need? As you have probably already realized, budgets as low as this requires you to make a lot of compromises in quality or ease of use. If it's only for a few days, renting a good mic shouldn't cost you more than buying a not so good one, and then you wouldn't need a separate preamp.

Also, depending on where you are, many places have institutes that can lend basic equipment like this to non-profit or student projects.

Good luck to you!
Click to expand...

I'll have a look at that! I'm a student, but I guess I'll find nothing for free because of the situation here in spain haha
Even though, as my plans are to shot continuedly, not only 2 days, I think it'll be better to buy equipment.
 
Guys I've found what I would call a great bargain: the AT897 for 220$. Does it work well with the H4N? I have found 1 or 2 guys talking about this combination, but I can't make conclusions... Help?
 
The NTG-2 and AT897, which use batteries to supply their internal phantom power circuitry, have lower output levels than their counterparts which get their phantom power externally. The NTG-1 and AT875 are almost identical to the NTG-2 and AT897. However, when the NTG-1 ($250) and AT875 ($160) draw their phantom power from a budget recorder like the H4n or DR-100mkII they drain the batteries of the recorder very rapidly (90 minutes or so). So you will be replacing the batteries in those recorders much more often; a financial trade-off. Personally I would deal with that and save up to get a decent mixer to feed the H4n.
 
Both the ntg2 and at897 can be fed phantom by removing the battery. I do believe that the only difference between the ntg1 and ntg2 is the battery option.

Makkea,

You can purchase the 897 new in the US easily for about that price. The 875 sells for about $180.

Ktek is a us company so is probably more expensive in Europe. You might also look at Gitzo.

Since you are a student, have you thought about trying to partner with another student filmmaker that does audio?

Any of the mics discussed here are decent entry level mics, what you need is a better recorder and that might be a better strategy for success.

Grant
 
unclebob6958 said:
The NTG-2 and AT897, which use batteries to supply their internal phantom power circuitry, have lower output levels than their counterparts which get their phantom power externally. The NTG-1 and AT875 are almost identical to the NTG-2 and AT897. However, when the NTG-1 ($250) and AT875 ($160) draw their phantom power from a budget recorder like the H4n or DR-100mkII they drain the batteries of the recorder very rapidly (90 minutes or so). So you will be replacing the batteries in those recorders much more often; a financial trade-off. Personally I would deal with that and save up to get a decent mixer to feed the H4n.
Click to expand...

So from that I understand that it's using NTG-1 or AT875 and paying much more due to batteries, or using NTG-2 or AT897 and buying a mixer. What do you think of my Audiobox Presonus USB? Is it that bad? Could you recommend me a good one in terms of quality/price? Thanks!

ggrantly said:
Both the ntg2 and at897 can be fed phantom by removing the battery. I do believe that the only difference between the ntg1 and ntg2 is the battery option.

Makkea,

You can purchase the 897 new in the US easily for about that price. The 875 sells for about $180.
Ktek is a us company so is probably more expensive in Europe. You might also look at Gitzo.
Since you are a student, have you thought about trying to partner with another student filmmaker that does audio?
Any of the mics discussed here are decent entry level mics, what you need is a better recorder and that might be a better strategy for success.

Grant
Click to expand...

The problem is that I live in Spain and prices here are much higher... So the offer I found was the greatest one (in fact it's about the same price as there, in US).
I've had a look at Gitzo and K-tek and I'm definetely going to go for Rode Boompole, it's much cheaper and I don't think it's gonna be that bad.
I've thought about associating with other students, but I don't know anyone who is involved in this, so it's difficult.
Finally, as I said I don't want to buy another recorder, I don't have that money.

After all, I think I'm going to get the AT875r, since it's cheaper than the other and I've read that it's a good combo with the h4n. I'm going to get the Rode Boompole, the SM3/SM4 shockmount (I guess a blimp would be much better, but don't have that money), and a Rode Deadcat.

I would buy the NTG-2 if my Presonus Audiobox would solve the low output level or if there was any cheap mixer or preamp wchich could do this function and wasn't terrible.

What do you think of this?

Thanks a lot in advance.

PD: I've seen a mic called Oktava MK012 and did a little research about it. I've found it has changeable capsules so it can be a hypercardioid, cardioid or omni by just swithcing them. Do you think that would be a good solution for both exterior and interior scenes? I guess the best would be to get this one plus the AT875r, but I don't have that money right now.
 
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Forget about the Oktava 012 outdoors. It's very susceptible it even the slightest air turbulence.. even indoors a foam windscreen is needed if there's any air movement at all. Handling noise can also be a major problem.. There are other issues as well (to lengthy to get into) including Chinese 'counterfeits'. Do a search for more info. Does it sound good? It can. Though the price is attractive it's not a good mic for the inexperienced.
 
Rick R said:
Forget about the Oktava 012 outdoors. It's very susceptible it even the slightest air turbulence.. even indoors a foam windscreen is needed if there's any air movement at all. Handling noise can also be a major problem.. There are other issues as well (to lengthy to get into) including Chinese 'counterfeits'. Do a search for more info. Does it sound good? It can. Though the price is attractive it's not a good mic for the inexperienced.
Click to expand...

Alright, thanks for the advice. Then I think I'll go for the AT875r.

And please, can anyone tell me if my Presonus Audiobox USB can be used as a mixer between the mic and the h4n?

Thanks a lot!
 
And please, can anyone tell me if my Presonus Audiobox USB can be used as a mixer between the mic and the h4n?
Click to expand...
The preamps seem good enough from the specs, but it really comes down to two things, which should be in the manual:
1. Can the audiobox be used in a "stand alone" mode, so that it wont have to be connected to a computer to work?
2. How high is the output from it, as the H4n can be sensitive to high inputs? Some sound cards have adjustable output levels, and if that's true for the audiobox, then you should be fine.

Since you seem to have made up your mind on the mic, why don't you just wait until you get it and try it out?
 
Rick R said:
Forget about the Oktava 012 outdoors. It's very susceptible it even the slightest air turbulence.. even indoors a foam windscreen is needed if there's any air movement at all. Handling noise can also be a major problem.. There are other issues as well (to lengthy to get into) including Chinese 'counterfeits'. Do a search for more info. Does it sound good? It can. Though the price is attractive it's not a good mic for the inexperienced.
Click to expand...

What Rick said is true, though the counterfeit issue is mostly a thing of the past. If you are mostly indoors, the Oktava is an decent option. Remember no matter what you do, considering your budget, there are going to be compromises.

I looked at the Presonus features and it will have some pretty serious issues for field work; it weighs 5 POUNDS and it needs usb power. It looks like you could patch the output to the Zoom, but the specs I saw didn't mention what type of output you get; mic, line, or something else. You could easily test this yourself. If you can live with the power and weight issues, it might work for you. You could power it with a Tekkeon battery like this:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/503090-REG/Tekkeon_MP3450_MP3450_myPower_ALL_Universal.html

But that becomes another budget issue for you.

You may not want to buy another recorder, but if you are using low output mics you may not be very satisfied with the result. I haven't tested the 897 and 875 side by side, but it seems like the 875 may have slightly higher output than the 897. I use the 875 in a minimalist video backpack kit for its size, which is tiny, and size is the mics best feature along with price. The 897 has a bit better sound, increased frequency range and a low cut filter; it really is a better mic for $60 more. Again, we are talking about the least expensive decent quality equipment.
 
Thanks for the replies.

Well, I see using the Audiobox USB is a big problem.
I think I'll finally get the AT875r which I've found here in europe for 150e (more or less 210$, best price I could find). Hope it'll give enought level, I've read about many people using it without problems.

Apart of that, for the booming part, Let's say I have a 200$ total budget to buy a boom and something to hold de mic (including windshield). I've thought of the Rode Boompole (although I've seen a good K-tek boom quite cheap), the SM4/SM3 shockmount and the Rode Deadcat. What do you guys think? Is everything suitable for the AT875r?

Thanks!!
 
ggrantly said:
Both the ntg2 and at897 can be fed phantom by removing the battery. I do believe that the only difference between the ntg1 and ntg2 is the battery option.
Click to expand...

Very true; however, the NTG-2 and AT897 still have lower volume outputs even when being fed phantom power externally. The problem becomes hiss from the H4n pre-amps. When you start cranking the gain of the H4n to compensate for the lower volume output of the NTG-2 and AT897 you introduce more hiss to the production sound tracks.
 
I have a couple of the Rode slip-ons, ds-6 and ds-7 (different lengths) come to mind. They are good for the money, about $60 us. The more expensive full blimp products are better, but for moderate use and a good price, the Rode products are hard to beat in general.

Grant
 
Thanks for your replies, Grant and unclebob.

ggrantly said:
I have a couple of the Rode slip-ons, ds-6 and ds-7 (different lengths) come to mind. They are good for the money, about $60 us. The more expensive full blimp products are better, but for moderate use and a good price, the Rode products are hard to beat in general.

Grant
Click to expand...

I don't know what slip-ons are, I've searched those ds-6 and ds-7 and couldn't find anything about them. I don't think I'll go for a full blimp. Instead of buying the SM4 I think I'll finally go for the PG2 (I've read great reviews about it and it's quite cheap).
 
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