Questions about angles/takes per scene

J

jamesc

Well-known member
I'm pretty new to the film making world and am preparing for my first shoot with a small cast. I have no prior background in film, but have been learning as much as I could in the past year. I've bought and watched through the Hollywood Camera Work series which was quite informative, but had a few questions about optimizing takes and shot lists.


Question 1: If I'm shooting different angles of a conversation, should I shoot each angle all the way through? For example, from HCW, I get a sense that the more angles you have, the easier it is on the life of the editor. For a basic two person conversation, it seems like a basic/technical approach might be:

1. Master two-shot
2. Over the Shoulder Medium Person #1
3. OTS Close Up #1
4. OTS Medium Person #2
5. OTS CU #2

Quick Diagram:


shots.jpg


If the scene is two minutes and averaging 3-4 takes per shot, then shooting the scene all the way though I would assume around 30-40 minutes to shoot (a 20:1 shoot to scene ratio). Is that a reasonable ratio?

Would it be better to try to break the scene down so I don't shoot the entire scene with all the angles? For example, saving the OTS medium for earlier in the scene and the OTS CU for the latter half.

This post on a breakdown of a scene from Goodfellas describes a possible 7 setups for 1/4 of a page of script and seems to advise to shoot all the way through the scene. 3-4 takes x 7 setups x 20 second scene = ~9 minutes or 27:1 shoot to scene ratio.

I found this thread pretty useful: Making a shot list . Good general info here and recommendations for HCW/Script Supervising and Film Continuity which I will check out.


Question 2: Do I keep the camera rolling between takes? I know that traditionally slates are used to help organize scenes for the editor (as well as possibly help time sync with the slate clap), but wouldn't pausing the record between takes automatically create clips for just that take?


Question 3: It seems like to make editing easier, the actors should talk a little bit slower than normal (or at least pause a tad bit more). Is there any way to ask an actor to do this have an adverse affect on their performance (especially beginners/amateurs)? Or do I just try my best in post?


Related threads
Directors that shoot a high number of takes
From this, I get a sense that with amateur or beginning actors, directors typically favor less takes as the actor's performance will likely degrade from fatigue.

Seamlessly edit dialogue together between takes
Room tone is definitely great advice and there was minor discussion of whether or not asking amateur actors to not overlap dialogue affects their performance.


Thanks in advance for any feedback!
 
Question 1: You are correct in your thought pattern. Go read my 24 Diary, I talk more about this. You'll need 2 Closes and 2 mediums for each person because your scene is over 70 seconds long. change it up so the audience doesn't get bored.

Question 2: Yes, you can do this. But when you change shots, reslate. Pausing can, but if you are syncing audio it makes it easier. And your editor may pull an expression taken from the actor after cut is yelled. Sometimes actors give a little extra in weird times.

Question 3: I would only ask actors to give the other actor a chance to respond and not "cut in" unless it's in the script. It makes it easier to get clean audio.

Good actors don't get tired that quick. They are used to 30+ takes easy and a scene taking 3 hours to shoot 2 minutes. But actors with little experience, you have to play it by them.
 
jamesc said:
Question 1: If I'm shooting different angles of a conversation, should I shoot each angle all the way through?
Click to expand...

To all your questions, yes, shoot each angle all the way through. It gives you options for editing, but more importantly, it lets your actors gets into the scene much better. Insert shots are the only place it's really safe to just grab a few second shot here or there. Always plan your editing BEFORE you shoot though so you'll be safe, even if you deviate from it once you start actually editing the footage together.

jamesc said:
Question 2: Do I keep the camera rolling between takes? I know that traditionally slates are used to help organize scenes for the editor (as well as possibly help time sync with the slate clap), but wouldn't pausing the record between takes automatically create clips for just that take?
Click to expand...

Generally it's better to stop the camera as then you'll have smaller files and if you didn't stop the camera, you'd have to scan through takes 1, 2, and 3 if you wanted to use take 4 in your edit. And it makes for larger file sizes.

Sometimes I'll keep the camera rolling to keep the energy up though, or I just need one quick line repeated, or something similar. I've heard Spielberg does that a lot especially when directing kids. I'm sure it helps take the pressure off and frees them up.

jamesc said:
Question 3: It seems like to make editing easier, the actors should talk a little bit slower than normal (or at least pause a tad bit more). Is there any way to ask an actor to do this have an adverse affect on their performance (especially beginners/amateurs)? Or do I just try my best in post?
Click to expand...

That's a personal choice you'll have to make as a director depending on your actors. I've never had a problem with it personally as those spots can usually be edited around it if need be, but the biggest thing to watch out for is that the actors (whether pro or not) is that they aren't "waiting their turn to speak" and are genuinely reacting and listening to each other.
 
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jamesc said:
I'm pretty new to the film making world and am preparing for my first shoot with a small cast. I have no prior background in film, but have been learning as much as I could in the past year. I've bought and watched through the Hollywood Camera Work series which was quite informative, but had a few questions about optimizing takes and shot lists.


Question 1: If I'm shooting different angles of a conversation, should I shoot each angle all the way through? For example, from HCW, I get a sense that the more angles you have, the easier it is on the life of the editor. For a basic two person conversation, it seems like a basic/technical approach might be:

1. Master two-shot
2. Over the Shoulder Medium Person #1
3. OTS Close Up #1
4. OTS Medium Person #2
5. OTS CU #2

Quick Diagram:


shots.jpg


If the scene is two minutes and averaging 3-4 takes per shot, then shooting the scene all the way though I would assume around 30-40 minutes to shoot (a 20:1 shoot to scene ratio). Is that a reasonable ratio?

Would it be better to try to break the scene down so I don't shoot the entire scene with all the angles? For example, saving the OTS medium for earlier in the scene and the OTS CU for the latter half.

This post on a breakdown of a scene from Goodfellas describes a possible 7 setups for 1/4 of a page of script and seems to advise to shoot all the way through the scene. 3-4 takes x 7 setups x 20 second scene = ~9 minutes or 27:1 shoot to scene ratio.

I found this thread pretty useful: Making a shot list . Good general info here and recommendations for HCW/Script Supervising and Film Continuity which I will check out.


Question 2: Do I keep the camera rolling between takes? I know that traditionally slates are used to help organize scenes for the editor (as well as possibly help time sync with the slate clap), but wouldn't pausing the record between takes automatically create clips for just that take?


Question 3: It seems like to make editing easier, the actors should talk a little bit slower than normal (or at least pause a tad bit more). Is there any way to ask an actor to do this have an adverse affect on their performance (especially beginners/amateurs)? Or do I just try my best in post?


Related threads
Directors that shoot a high number of takes
From this, I get a sense that with amateur or beginning actors, directors typically favor less takes as the actor's performance will likely degrade from fatigue.

Seamlessly edit dialogue together between takes
Room tone is definitely great advice and there was minor discussion of whether or not asking amateur actors to not overlap dialogue affects their performance.


Thanks in advance for any feedback!
Click to expand...

Question 1:
You can shoot the scene all the way through from every setup, but you are spending much more time and money (shooting more film/tape/etc) doing it this way. If you know exactly what you want, shoot exactly what you want and move on. If you are uncertain, shooting "coverage" will give you more options in post.

Question 2:
I assume you are referring to the HVX. Stopping the camera between takes is the normal procedure. It allows you to conserve your shooting medium (film,tape,storage space) and allows the editor to not have his time wasted searching through footage of unusable between take stuff.

Because the HVX creates new clips for each take does not mean you should not slate. The slate will really help the editor know which take is which, without having to watch each one through. Have someone on set writing down which takes are the good ones. This will also help the editor in post move faster. The slate is also very important if you are shooting double system or multiple camera.

There are times you can have a rolling clip with multiple takes. This is called a "series". You will write this on the slate to let the editor know. This is for times when stoping the camera would take to much time. Usually "series" are reserved for small shots or inserts. An example would be a close up of a man picking up the receiver of a phone. The slate would have "series" written on it, and the actor would just go through the action multiple different ways. "Series" works best when there is little or no- reset time. You can do these on dialogs and etc, but just use your judgement when this is reasonable or when it is just wastefull.

Question 3:
I know what you are saying. This is a bit complicated. It's not that you actually want your actors speaking "slower" but rather, you don't want them to step on each others lines. Stepping on lines, is when one actor delivers a line on top of another. This is perfectly fine for arguements and etc, but sometimes you will find it hard to edit around. It's something you really must think about. If you know exactly what you want and where you plan to cut in post, you should know when a pause is appropriate and when it's not.

I hope that helps. You really have a pretty solid grip on things as it is. Keep looking at these resources. Seems like you are doing your homework. :beer:
 
Good nuts and bolts of directing guys.

If you are a beginner, I would also suggest going through each angle all of the way through. Once you become more experienced and skilled, you may find yourself editing in your head as you shoot and you will only have to shoot what you will use. Famous directors who were/are masters of this style were John Ford and in the modern era, Clint Eastwood. Also, directors who edit their own films like Robert Rodriguez can do this because they know exactly what they need to successfully cover a scene.

Also, keep in mind, we are discussing filmmaking as a "normal" process with "normal coverage". There a many directors who eschew normal coverage and structure their scenes in their own coverage style which is sometimes very minimalist and then there are others who over-cover every scene so that they can hyperactively jump around the scene in editing like a caffeine addicted monkey. Just depends on who you are as a filmmaker. It's kind of like you need to learn the rules before you can break them, a saying that I agree with.

Best,

Dan
 
Unless you're shooting film and you've got 400' of film to shoot a 5 minute piece, shoot the whole scene (or as much as you can from each setup). From a crew's standpoint, it's such a waste to change setups (camera/lighting positions) to shoot one line and then move on. That said, if you're just using practicals or you've got a china ball taped up in the middle of the room, then you're not wasting anybody's energy.

Creatively, it's good to have options. You may have storyboarded the whole film and know the beats, know the cuts, but filmmaking is so alive. Sometimes things just change. Sometimes, the cuts don't really work so well, or you realized that in a particular moment on a particular beat, a closeup is too intense, or a medium shot is not intimate enough. Sometime during post, you might think that a line might be better without a word or a scene might be better without a line and whatever it is, it might change the pace of the scene. If you've only shot what you've storyboarded, you're stuck and the film can only be what you first thought of. Maybe that's OK with you, maybe you want the film to be exactly the way you conceived it on day one.

In my opinion, since films are a collaborative effort, between the director, the crew, the cast, etc, one should be open-minded. With so many people involved, anything can happen. It may end up that your original vision will be perfect and will carry through the whole way until completion, but one can't know that for sure every time. There are so often magic moments that come up unexpectedly and change a film for the better, so I advise you prepare for them and get enough coverage.

Good luck.

~~Dave
 
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When planning blocking its not just enough to say, I've got two people talking to each other so I'll do a right angle master, two external reverses and two internal reverses.

Read the script. What is going on in the scene? What is the purpose of the scene? How well do I know the characters at this point in the story. Is doing any of the internals as a CU a bit too intimate for any of the characters? Perhaps one of the characters needs an XCU on their eyes as a reaction shot to something the other actor says at the end of the scene. Its one thing to know the mechanics of coverage but actors don't necessarily stay static. There are reasons actors move. Blocking is derived from the script breakdown.

What if the purpose of the scene is that Actor 1 is trying to dig information from Actor 2 and Actor 2 is trying to conceal that information from Actor 1. How could that affect the actors and thus the blocking?

A blocking diagram is created during a script breakdown and it includes where actors will be at given points in time in the script. That's how the marks for the actors are set up. If an actor has a reason to move they won't necessarily be in the same static location during the scene.

If its a long scene do you need the master shot for the entire scene? Would a partial master work better without risking loss of coverage?
 
Wow. This thread has been alive for less than 2 hours and already some amazing responses! Before I respond, let me just say that how invaluable a resource dvxuser is, especially for new filmmakers. I really appreciate the time everyone's taken for responding and it's enormously helpful.

It's great to know that shooting full scenes is acceptable and even commonplace. This was something that surprised me a bit when watching HCW. I understand that it's not always optimal to shoot all the angles full given time/fatigue constraints, but I'll probably have to learn how to balance that as I go along.

Also great to know that I can hi the pause button between takes, but perhaps give some leeway before and after 'action/cut' to capture any extra moments from the actors. And I definitely plan on slating everything as I go.

@jsl4: awesome diary! Can't believe I haven't come across that page yet. And it's really good to know that good actors can handle so many takes. I will be working with mostly beginner and amateur actors to start, but I think giving them a frame of reference can help set their expectations.

@Gohanto: really great point on how shooting the entire scene will allow the actors really get in and stay in the scene. In my ideal world right now, I imagine that the balance between getting the shot and letting the actors be will go swimmingly, but I'm sure that won't always be the case :).

@Ryan Patrick O'Hara: great info about series and slating them.

@dan: I definitely want to start by playing by the rules, even if that will take a bit more work and time. I don't plan on my first short or even my first thirty shorts to be stellar, but I think the learning experiences will be invaluable. I've always found that in order to master an art, having a solid understanding and foundations in the basics is a must. From there, going out and getting sufficient practice and experience.

Thanks again for all the responses so far!
 
I just finished shooting my first full fledged narrative short and I learned alot about this. The film features a 5 minute conversation on a park bench. I shot a master of the whole scene 4 times and proceeded to move in for close ups. It was the last shot of the Day and we had been shooting to P2 cards and halfway through the CUs of the second character we ran out of space. We were losing daylight and I had to hurriedly go through the footage and delete shots to make room.

Aside from that, while editing the footage, my editing decisions for the conversation were influenced alot more by the actors performances than the more action oriented parts of the movie. With that in mind it seems like taking as much as possible is a good thing.

Also, in regards to the actors talking over each other, what I usually do is keep the cuts matching the idea. That is to say, if A comes in over the end of B's line, the camera stays on B until A finishes a word / pauses. This can be really frustrating sometimes if the line doesn't exactly match but a good editor should be able to make it work.
 
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