question on lighting smoke

J

joker454

Well-known member
Hi guys, so I have a website where I film ladies smoking and normally I film it outside to take advantage of the California sun to give their cigarette smoke a nice glow to it. Lately though I've been filming indoors and I'm trying to figure out how to have their smoke get that same nice glow. Right now I just use a 500watt tungsten light from one of my umbrella lighting kits aimed behind or to the side of the subject so that it lights their smoke without affecting the way the lady is lit. It's 'ok', but clearly not bright enough. I don't know much about the more expensive light options out there since I've never used them, but what type of light should I use for this? From some searches I've done it seems like a single HMI light would suffice, does that sound right? Opinions seem to vary as to how much brighter hmi lights are, but would a 200 watt hmi 5600k bulb be around ~4x brighter than my current 500w 3200k tungsten? I think going for 4 times the smoke lighting I have now would be ok, but is that maybe not enough? Alternatively would it be possible to just brute force a solution by using a bunch of my existing 500 watt lights?
 
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It doesn't have to be an HMI. Sure, they're much more efficient, but would I spend thousands of $$$ on an HMI JUST to light up smoke? Probably not.

Have you tried using one of your 500w tungsten units without the umbrella? Seems to me that would do the trick.
 
Hi, yeah that's what I'm doing right now. Basically I remove the umbrella, and turn the housing with the light to face the subject so that the light is being aimed right at her, although it's all placed behind her so that it doesn't affect how the rest of her is lit. That does work but the effect isn't enough, it just doesn't make the smoke have that strong glow that it does when I film it outside. Hmi lights do seem to cost a lot...but seems like they would be ideal, although I've never used them. Do you think just using three 500w umbrella type lights behind her would get me close enough to a single 200watt hmi light? I'd do the same thing with them, remove the umbrella and aim each light hosing right at the girl. I've never used an hmi light myself so I don't have a point of reference, as in I don't know if using three of my existing lights would get me close to what one 200 watt hmi would do.
 
Why not try moving the 500 watt light closer to the subject. Lower it and point it upwards so that it is lighting the smoke. You may want to snoot the light with black wrap (Cinefoil) to control it more. I recently put back light through smoke coming from a dragon mask we were puppeteering and all I used was a frosted 250 watt screw in halogen bulb in a reflector clamp light, with a little black wrap. We shot the light up through the smoke, from pretty close to, but hidden by, the dragon mask, and it looked pretty good. I don't know if it was the intensity of the sun shining through the smoke look you are looking for, but it is worth trying with your lights to see.
 
My next step before buying any new lights would be to put the 500w lights that are keying your subject on a dimmer and bring them way down, while opening up your aperture. Or, put lower wattage lamps in them. Leave the light for the smoke alone. What you're going for is more contrast.
 
I think David has it. It's not how much light, but how the light is hitting the smoke. You may need a light next to/above the camera that shoots light at the smoke so it can be reflected directly back. If you had the light behind the smoke, it would be grey, similar to the frame grab below.

How about a frame grab of the outside shot and the indoor shot?

In the frames below, smoke is in shadow and light, but the difference between the two is negligible.

smoke in shadow

smokeinshadow_zps12277468.jpg


smoke in the light
Smokeinlight_zpsa2dfeaf8.jpg
 
Thanks for the input guys, here's some sample pics to show the current difference. First two pics are on a sunny day outside:

49_Bailey5.jpg26_Avril15.jpg

This one is outside but on a more overcast day:

55_Mischa11.jpg

This one is indoors using a 500 w umbrella light from above and to the right, pointing down towards her:

48_Elle10.jpg

The first two have that nice glow, the 3rd one on the overcast day isn't as bright but that's ok as it reflects the somberness of that day anyways as the weather was more gloomy. The last one though is indoors, it's ok but missing that punch. I like the idea of lowering my two front umbrellas to 250watt each, I don't know why that didn't occur to me to try that, I'll give it a shot. I have two fluorescent umbrellas that are 85 watt each, that may help as I can use those in the front to light the girl, then keep the 500w to light the smoke.
 
Paul Hudson said:
Use a hard source behind the smoke. DONE.
Click to expand...

Bingo.... and it can be any hard light really. Below is a screen shot of test footage for the shoot that I referenced. I think the point is that you have to dedicate a light to lighting the smoke.

Dragon smoke CC.jpg

EDIT: and I like to light the smoke from below. It just seemed to work better.
 
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I actually do have a light dedicated to the smoke, I use one of these currently:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/48734-REG/Smith_Victor_401006_910UL_Adapta_Light_500_Watt.html

...with a 500 watt bulb, that's what's used in the 4th pic I had posted, the indoor one. It's basically from one of my umbrellas lights, I just remove the umbrella and aimed it towards the girl. In that particular pic it's above and behind her, and it's aimed down towards her. I saw this light as well:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/285962-REG/Lowel_D2_102_DP_One_Light_Kit.html

That's a cheap 1000 watt light, I could always try that one as well for the smoke light, maybe that would be enough.
 
Ahhhh, the Smith-Victor Adapta-Light. I have a couple of those. What bulb are you using in those?


The Lowel DP is a good light, and would be harder than a light from the S-V scoop and, with the barn doors, would be more controllable than the the scoop. I would buy used though.

Now correct me if I am wrong, but in the 4th pic, the light lighting the smoke is that same light that is lighting the girl on the (Camera) right side, correct? If that is so, then look at the first two pics. The light making the smoke glow is shining through from behind. That is what Paul is saying... the smoke has to be back lit with a hard light. That is not the position of lighting in your shot. At the very least, the light on the right should moved farther upstage (Away from the camera) and angled to just barely rake the girl's (Camera) right side and light the smoke from behind. I would get a different light than the S-V scoops. The Lowel DP maybe, but I have several of these lights that I think would work fine for what you want:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/48888-REG/Smith_Victor_401131_Q60_600_Watt_Open.html

I bought a kit of those, used, over 20 years ago and I still end up using them all of the time. Go on eBay... there are thousands of different lights that you can use for very reasonable prices.
 
David G. Smith said:
Ahhhh, the Smith-Victor Adapta-Light. I have a couple of those. What bulb are you using in those?
Click to expand...

It's a 3200k 500w incandescent bulb.


David G. Smith said:
Now correct me if I am wrong, but in the 4th pic, the light lighting the smoke is that same light that is lighting the girl on the (Camera) right side, correct? If that is so, then look at the first two pics. The light making the smoke glow is shining through from behind. That is what Paul is saying... the smoke has to be back lit with a hard light. That is not the position of lighting in your shot. At the very least, the light on the right should moved farther upstage (Away from the camera) and angled to just barely rake the girl's (Camera) right side and light the smoke from behind.
Click to expand...

Yup they are the same lights on the 4th pic, two of them in the front further away hitting off umbrellas and one to the side and slightly behind for the smoke hitting directly. The first three pics it's sunlight of course that is lighting the smoke from high up, there's no other lights there. Ok I understand what you mean now. There's actually two reasons I moved that smoke light closer to her side. First is that when I tried it further back it caused issues in the lens, like haze or a glow. The second reason is that if the light is far back and she blows smoke directly forwards, then a good chunk of it would not get lit because her head would block some of the far back smoke light, whereas with the smoke like closer to the side means the smoke would always be fully lit. Not sure I explained that right, but hopefully you know what I mean. Anyways I understand what you mean though, I'll play with the light position again and see if I can get it a little further back.


David G. Smith said:
I would get a different light than the S-V scoops. The Lowel DP maybe, but I have several of these lights that I think would work fine for what you want:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/48888-REG/Smith_Victor_401131_Q60_600_Watt_Open.html

I bought a kit of those, used, over 20 years ago and I still end up using them all of the time. Go on eBay... there are thousands of different lights that you can use for very reasonable prices.
Click to expand...

Cool much appreciated, I ordered the Lowel DP and I'll probably order the one you list as well. I figure you can never have enough lights :) Thanks for the help!
 
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