QUESTION: JVC HD10U vs Panasonic DVX100

Mommaerts

Mommaerts

Member
I did a search with no luck here on the forum as well as the interenet. I would like to find a place where I can find out which is best for me to use as a feature film camera. I'm starting to become a biased user of the DVX but my partner is still wanting to further investigate HDV

It would be great if i can find a place which lists the Pro's and Con's for the JVC. Personally i don't think the technology for HDV is mature yet and think i'm better off using SD then uprez than to shoot HDV. However, there's more post possibilities when using a HDV source than there are with SD (yes this is a vague statement).

Any non-biased insight would be great, even better would be a place on the net which will allow me to pile up the information on both cams and then use that information to decide what will be best for our feature film.

Thanks in advance,

(M)
 
Re: QUESTION: JVC HD10U vs Panasonic DVX100

Ive said this before and am not being biased and also admittedly do not know enough about the TECHNICAL babble that is bound to come in this thread. For me, it is:

24p
 
Re: QUESTION: JVC HD10U vs Panasonic DVX100

Thanks for the replies, i downloaded those clips a while back and was really impressed with s-spline. I bought it and have started playing around with it. Also, i beleive those clips were done on the HD1 and not the HD10U, i don't really know what the differences are but to me both look pretty good. When i show it to people some love the HD and some prefer the DVX UPREZ.

There are many pros to using the DVX from start to finish. I'm sure there's more than just the HD factor for the JVC.

I guess i'm looking at the be all end all factor on why we would use the DVX as opposed to the HD10U.

I have a feeling that this topic is sort of the same as the ol' PC better than MAC debate which i'm so tired of hearing.

anyway, any input is always welcome, thanks.

(M)
 
Re: QUESTION: JVC HD10U vs Panasonic DVX100

[quote author=Mommaerts link=board=news;num=1081124815;start=0#3 date=04/04/04 at 18:41:33]

I guess i'm looking at the be all end all factor on why we would use the DVX as opposed to the HD10U.
[/quote]

24p.
 
Re: QUESTION: JVC HD10U vs Panasonic DVX100

Maybe i'm not fully understanding ALL the advantages of 24p.

Here's what I know but would like to know more as to why 24p is so important:

1-24p is the same as film (How big of a deal is this?)
2-24p is better quality than 60i
3-SD is a more accessible/cheaper medium for me at this point
4-(i know there's more but can't think of them at the moment)

but i hear a lot of people saying that:
1-you can convert 30p down to 24p
2-make 30p have the same cinematic look at film
3-You have more play in post with HD material than SD, even when you take into account the colour enhancements needed to resaturate the colour in the JVC.

Please help me add to this list.

Don't get me wrong, I'm VERY PRO-DVX-UPREZ but am having a hard time explaning to others why i think this is a better medium at this point in time than jumping on the HDV band wagon.

Thanks again for all replies!

(M)
 
Re: QUESTION: JVC HD10U vs Panasonic DVX100

you have been mentioning SD a lot over this thread. Is it possible to record SD from a DVX100? That would certainly raise my drewling rates for the DVX...
 
Re: QUESTION: JVC HD10U vs Panasonic DVX100

the dvx is an SD cam .. SD stands for standard definition, as oppsed to high definition the standards for SD in ntsc land here are 720x480 29.976 fps with some other color, and luma type laws, but it IS an SD cam. DV stands for digital video. you can make SD video that is captured digitally instead of analog.
 
Re: QUESTION: JVC HD10U vs Panasonic DVX100

I am the most unbiased guy when it comes to approaching a situation and evaluating it. I have no patience for people who say "Well mac's are better because... well, because they're Mac's" or whatever. I say test it, review it, and whatever is better is better because... well, because it's better.

Having said that, I am no longer unbiased between the DVX and the JVC. The JVC is a horrid tool. It is completely unusable in a professional environment. And I do, indeed, pity anyone who has to use one.

HDV has great potential, but JVC's implementation of it makes it completely unsuitable for any sort of professional production environment. It has no true manual control, no way to accurately gauge focus, no way to truly lock exposure... it is simply a consumer handycam-style camera, with a high-definition CCD stuck in it. And, in JVC's defense, that's all they marketed it as. It's not their fault that people are trying to adapt it to use it for dramatic narrative production, a function to which it is completely unsuited.

The differences between the HD1 and the HD10 are almost negligible. The HD10 has less edge enhancement, a higher-resolution LCD, and a bogus XLR attachment box (bogus because it still runs its audio through an unbalanced 1/8" minijack!) Other than that there is no difference between the HD1 and the HD10.

HDV shows a lot of promise. But the HD10 is not the tool to use. If you want to explore HDV's potential, you'll have to wait about a year. JVC is supposedly introducing a full professional ENG-style camera, like the DV5000U but with HDV chips, and Sony has announced what looks like a killer 3-CCD HDV prototype. But save yourself some serious pain -- don't bother with the HD1/HD10.
 
Re: QUESTION: JVC HD10U vs Panasonic DVX100

Barry, you raise some interesting dirt on the JVC which i'm looking for such as manual focus etc and XLR through 1/8" that's the funniest thing ever. I too VERY strongly beleive it's a consumer camera not meant for film production, and cudos to JVC for tapping into a market which has yet to be fullfilled. That being said, i've seen many great films done with terrible equipment.

The other reason why I'm raising this questions is because I'm bringing my DVX to a test shoot at JVC Canada where we'll be spending a day shooting a set and editing it. Being somewhat new to the whole film camera thing I want to gather as many rebuttles (i think that's how you spell it) for any comments that the JVC rep may try and push. However, i want to be subtle about it and not be conterproductive by being ignorant and come off as a narrow minded DVX User.

This is turning out to be an interesting thread and I welcome any more advantages or disadvantages or work arounds when it comes to the JVC.

thanks again to you all,

(M)
 
Re: QUESTION: JVC HD10U vs Panasonic DVX100

About what? The footage? The content? The film look?

("Frame" mode isn't true 30p, by the way.)
 
Re: QUESTION: JVC HD10U vs Panasonic DVX100

Ummm, i don't want to sound like an ass but how is the GL2 clip supposed to help me with my HD10U vs DVX question?

If you matted the clip to 1.85 I think I would take it more seriously. Mind you I'm also a hardcore widescreen enthusiast. Released 2002? is that a typo? (please don't asnwer these questions in this thread). You should repost in the screen grabs section, but then again, it's not really related to DVXusers.

Let's not stray to far away from the topic as maybe others can use this thread as reference as well.

(M)
 
Re: QUESTION: JVC HD10U vs Panasonic DVX100

Oh, don't forget the JVC gives you no control whatsoever over the audio levels, it's always running AGC. Absolutely the most unprofessional audio system possible. Oh, and don't forget that many, many people have complained about a tinny echo in their recordings too. Seems like the MPEG-2 audio compression may encode the tracks at a slight offset in time or something, causing everything to play with a very, very short "slap echo".

The problems I have with the JVC's picture are well-documented. Basically, using the camera is impossible, but if you somehow manage to get around the insipid limitations the form factor imposes, you can get some very, very high resolution footage out of it. That's all you get though, is high resolution -- every other aspect of the picture stinks. It has serious chroma noise problems, there's no latitude to speak of, colors blow out to white almost instantly, and there's no warmth or saturation or depth to the picture. The word I use to describe the JVC's picture is "plasticky" -- it makes everything look like a plastic model of itself. And the one-CCD design imposes limitations on color reproduction.

JVC acknowledges a little bit of this in their own FAQ. The question they ask is "would 3 CCD's be superior to 1 CCD?" and the answer they give is "For absolute picture quality, yes. But there are practical trade-offs. 3 CCDs would provide superior accuracy of color reproduction, and would provide superior resolution for same density of CCD. However, the 3 CCD camera would be larger, heavier and draw more power which requires a larger battery. The 3 CCD camera would, also, increase the price of the unit."

The picture the camera is capable of delivering, under the RIGHT conditions, is stunning. But if the conditions are not absolutely right, the camera delivers horrible footage. I've shown some pictures of the camera looking good, I don't think I've ever shown one of it looking bad, but hey, fair's fair, right? Check out this JPG, this is one of my favorite shots I've ever seen, because it is just so mind-numbingly awful:
http://www.icexpo.com/JVCnDVX/JVC-HD-01.jpg

(now, mind you, I find the picture so fun because it is so horrible, regardless of what camera shot it).

I've seen very good-looking footage from this camera, but I've also seen shots that look like that. Talk about your edge enhancement... the unfortunate guy who owns that camera is a very skilled DP. He wasn't going for the best shot, he just did some point 'n' shoot to see what the camera can do (which, mind you, is almost the only way you can use it, because you have no verifiable control over exposure anyway -- you can set shutter, or aperture, but not both, and sometimes the camera will change them on you if it feels the need). So he used auto-everything, pointed it at a lovely mountainscape, and, well, this is what the camera handed him.

It is unusable as a production tool. You cannot ever trust it.

You can't focus the thing. The LCD has 113,000 pixels on it... the CCD has nearly a million. You're seeing only 1/10 of the resolution of the full picture -- there's no way you can focus with accuracy. If you hook up an external monitor, it will down-rez the picture to SD resolution, so you're still seeing only 1/3 the potential resolution. If you look at the high-def output, there's like a 1.5-second delay between what the camera sees and when it spits it out onto the monitor. Try focusing with that -- every time you move the focus ring, you have to wait a second and a half to see the results.

It is unusable. It is only usable in the same way that you could theoretically build a house by using a hand saw, and maybe using a rock to hammer nails with. I mean, maybe you COULD do it, but you'd have to be a masochist and/or insane to even try it.

Oh, plus it only shoots at 30P, which no film transfer house in the country (that I know of) can work with to transfer to 24P. Plus if you want to release your footage in a PAL country you're hosed.

I have no axe to grind against JVC, or against HDV, in fact I'm quite looking forward to the new HDV options. But I will say it again, in my opinion the current JVC HD1 and HD10 are completely unsuitable for dramatic narrative production work in a professional environment. Your mileage may vary, and if you choose to use it, well, again, my sympathies go with you.

The picture is very high resolution, there is no disputing that fact. If your entire goal is to get a high resolution picture, the JVC can do that better than the DVX. But if things like professional controls, audio, color rendition, color saturation, film frame rates, manual zoom control, repeatable focus marks (and on and on and on) matter to you, I'd say you'd be much better off ignoring the HD1/HD10 and just either shoot on the DVX, or wait for a new HDV camera to come available (which may be a year or more away).
 
Re: QUESTION: JVC HD10U vs Panasonic DVX100

I considered the HD10 for about ten minutes before going with the DVX.
 
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