Question about Rode NTG-3

F

f64manray

Well-known member
I have a more than a few years of audio recording experience with music, but this whole recording audio for video is a whole different beast to me especially this whole shotgun mic thing. I'm not sure what to expect out of it. maybe someone could tell me if mine is working correctly. I really expected more rejection of unwanted sound than I'm getting.

First, let me say I just received my Rode NTG-3 with the $1 Blimp. Wow, this has got to be the best value offered in audio mics in a decade at least. I'm really impressed with it. Almost think I should pick up another one.

My question is: I've been testing it indoors with the Juiced Link mic pres just with a headphone amp (Boostaro) attached and monitoring with Sony 7506's and I'm hearing the cars pass by out side. Should this be happening? The mic is facing away from the street. The rear of the mic is also not facing the street. it just seems it should not be picking up that street noise due to the shotgun mic pattern. Shouldn't it be rejecting this street noise especially since I'm indoors? I've tried booming the mic from over head and scooping it from below.

I'm really impressed with how sensitive the NTG-3 is at recording a speaking voice from 1 1/2 to 2 feet away.

Thanks for your helping me manage my expectations. :-)
 
Shotguns mic are great at reducing sound coming from the sides, but it's impossible to completely reject the sounds (blame physics).

If you're indoors, the best you can do is....
1. Find a location further away from the road.
2. Close any openings (windows, doors, ect...)
3. Bring the mic closer
 
Thanks. Yeah, bringing the mic closer and reducing the gain of the mic pre is probably the best bet. I'm just experimenting trying to get to know the NTG-3 right now. I think this is going to be a great exterior mic.

I'm thinking of getting the Sennheiser mkh-50 for interior vocals. Would you have any thoughts on that? Is it possible to record a speaking voice 1 to 2 feet away with the mkh 50 with minimal room reflections?
 
Yep the G3/Blimp deal is amazing for the price, with only 2 weeks to go. Finishes 31st.

Sounds like you first had the NTG-3 wound way up, hearing everything especially with the Boostaroo in circuit.

BTW which model do you have, I noticed recently a list of cans which match various Boostaroo impedances. The Revolution matches the 7506.

You must have a Juicedlink with 48V, for voice outdoors you probably want its low cut in as the NTG-3 doesn't have one. What recorder are you using?

Don't have the mkh-50 but for voice indoors you have to get as close as sounds good with the room damped way down. I use this rig it's great .. Cheers.

http://www.amazon.com/Harlan-Hogan-Signature-Series-Porta-Booth/dp/B00151YP18
 
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f64manray said:
I have a more than a few years of audio recording experience with music, but this whole recording audio for video is a whole different beast to me especially this whole shotgun mic thing. I'm not sure what to expect out of it. maybe someone could tell me if mine is working correctly. I really expected more rejection of unwanted sound than I'm getting.

First, let me say I just received my Rode NTG-3 with the $1 Blimp. Wow, this has got to be the best value offered in audio mics in a decade at least. I'm really impressed with it. Almost think I should pick up another one.

My question is: I've been testing it indoors with the Juiced Link mic pres just with a headphone amp (Boostaro) attached and monitoring with Sony 7506's and I'm hearing the cars pass by out side. Should this be happening? The mic is facing away from the street. The rear of the mic is also not facing the street. it just seems it should not be picking up that street noise due to the shotgun mic pattern. Shouldn't it be rejecting this street noise especially since I'm indoors? I've tried booming the mic from over head and scooping it from below.

I'm really impressed with how sensitive the NTG-3 is at recording a speaking voice from 1 1/2 to 2 feet away.

Thanks for your helping me manage my expectations. :-)
Click to expand...

Note that "shotgun" mics aren't really like lasers with a thin beam that you can aim precisely. They are good at rejecting noise from the side, but the more directional they are the more likey they are to have a vestigial rear lobe of sensitivity. You can see that pretty clearly in this chart. You can also see that shotgun mics aren't all THAT directional. The NTG-3 is down only 3dB at 45 degrees at 1KHz...

ntg-3_polar.jpg

This is the directional pattern diagram of the Rode NTG-3
I just got one myself and so far it seems great.

Note also that shotgun mics are not as effective indoors because they can't reject nearby reflections from walls, ceiling and even floor. Rode has a video in their "online university" that does a pretty good job at illustrating the superiority of cardioids (or hypercardioids) indoors vs. even good shotguns like the NTG-3.
 
Richard Crowley said:
Note that "shotgun" mics aren't really like lasers with a thin beam that you can aim precisely. They are good at rejecting noise from the side, but the more directional they are the more likey they are to have a vestigial rear lobe of sensitivity. You can see that pretty clearly in this chart. You can also see that shotgun mics aren't all THAT directional. The NTG-3 is down only 3dB at 45 degrees at 1KHz...

ntg-3_polar.jpg

This is the directional pattern diagram of the Rode NTG-3
I just got one myself and so far it seems great.

Note also that shotgun mics are not as effective indoors because they can't reject nearby reflections from walls, ceiling and even floor. Rode has a video in their "online university" that does a pretty good job at illustrating the superiority of cardioids (or hypercardioids) indoors vs. even good shotguns like the NTG-3.
Click to expand...

Agreed that shotguns are not like thin lasers but the rest is not really right and that polar pattern is very misleading.

Most gun mics use a super-cardioid (or hyper-cardioid) capsule with and interference tube.

The bass response is basically super-cardioid and the interference tube makes it more directional as frequency rises.

That polar-pattern is just an "ideal" and misses out most of the internationally agreed frequencies. These are:-
125 Hz
250 Hz
500 Hz
1kHz

2kHz
4 kHz
8 kHz
16 kHz

I would question any polar-pattern that does not display all 8 frequencies.

Also - there will be some comb-filtering effects and off-axis lobes due to the interference tube - the displayed polar-paten does not show these - these are always there, but the very best designs can reduce the number.

The out-of-phase rear lobe is from the super-cardioid capsule and any mic. has some rear pick-up (except a pure cardioid).
 
John Willett said:
... that polar pattern is very misleading.
That polar-pattern is just an "ideal" and misses out most of the internationally agreed frequencies.
I would question any polar-pattern that does not display all 8 frequencies.
Click to expand...

Take it up with Rode. It is their own published chart. And remember that most published charts are idealized averages and actual examples rarely look that good.
 
Just for comparisons sake, Sennheiser generally does a better job at creating accurate polar patterns so here's one for the MKH 416 (slightly tighter pattern than the NTG-3, but the closest shotgun out there for comparison)

MKH60_polar.jpg
 
Note that you are probably hearing the traffic noise from outside reflected from the wall that the mic is facing. When we hear things like that with our ears, our ear/brain computing system automatically tunes this out, but a microphone can't do that.

I have similar experience doing location music recording (mostly classical) and the effects are similar. It takes getting the right mics in just the right location to produce the equivalent of what you would hear from the audience. And putting the mic IN the audience location rarely produces that effect.

Much of the "art" of both video and audio production is in knowing HOW to "cheat" the lighting or blocking or mic positions to produce something that looks and sounds "natural" in the final edit.
 
Richard Crowley said:
When we hear things like that with our ears, our ear/brain computing system automatically tunes this out, but a microphone can't do that.
Click to expand...

That thing is one heck of a tool : ) It amazes me everytime. I personally find vertically mirroring the signals of the eye really neat too...

Anyway, I have a question following. (It's not my intention to hijack this topic for myself, though it's not a difficult question and really is related to this topic, didn't want to open a topic just for this single).

Although everybody says/writes/screams? it is NOT recommended to use shotgun-mics INDOORS, it seems everybody is making an exception for the NTG-3! Come on guys, what is the deal? Can or can not use? I really got confused on this and googling doesn't help much either..
 
mzitnamor said:
Although everybody says/writes/screams? it is NOT recommended to use shotgun-mics INDOORS, it seems everybody is making an exception for the NTG-3! Come on guys, what is the deal? Can or can not use? I really got confused on this and googling doesn't help much either..
Click to expand...

As a general rule, shotguns aren't great inside, but every shotgun is different, and every room is different. The only way to be absolutely certain if a particular mic will work well in a given space is to try it out. From what I've read, the NTG-3 isn't too bad in many indoor environments, but the only simple answer to a lot of sound questions is: "get out there and try it."
 
If you have little experience with audio you should not use the NTG-3 or any other shotgun indoors. Conversely, a very skilled boom-op and production sound mixer can make just about any shotgun work indoors. It's all about technique and that takes time/experience to acquire. It's also about prepping the set to mitigate the sound reflection problems, something most beginning filmmakers never bother with or would know how to do properly in any case.
 
Richard Crowley said:
Note also that shotgun mics are not as effective indoors because they can't reject nearby reflections from walls, ceiling and even floor.
Click to expand...

This (above) is the best answer to the OP's question.

The traffic noise outside is coming through windows, doors, and walls (in that order) and bouncing around the room until it lands in the mic's beam and then you hear it.



If you want to know a shotgun's true rejection capabilities, then either get yourself in an anechoic chamber (unlikely) or take your new NTG-3 OUTDOORS and away from ANY buildings or other reflective surfaces ("sound walls" installed by the highway dept. etc.) and then hold it out in front of you and rotate it as you talk... or go near a road, where there's still no other reflective surfaces around (I mean not even within 100 YARDS/METERS of you...) and you'll see the true rejection potential of the NTG-3.

You'll be surprised... it rejects about as effectively as a 416... which is to say quite well.

Also... notice that the pattern has the most rejection slightly off the direct 180... more like 120-130 degrees... as do virtually ALL shotguns... so if you want max rejection put your voice in the direct beam... and the unwanted sound about 130 degrees off of that... or simply "slightly to the side of the direct rear beam"...
 
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mzitnamor said:
Although everybody says/writes/screams? it is NOT recommended to use shotgun-mics INDOORS, it seems everybody is making an exception for the NTG-3!
Click to expand...

I don't think that is true at all. Rode themselves have posted a video demonstrating that the NTG3 is NOT as effective in a very reflective situation (a handball court) as a simple cardioid.

If anything, you are simply hearing the "honeymoon" period of fascination with a new microphone that seems to be performing well above its price point. Time will tell when we all get out there and start using it regularly in the field.
 
Richard Crowley said:
If anything, you are simply hearing the "honeymoon" period of fascination with a new microphone that seems to be performing well above its price point. Time will tell when we all get out there and start using it regularly in the field.
Click to expand...

Ha.. This actually makes clear the whole situation for this mic with the right words. I agree on this as I'm really pulled into buying the NTG-3 but still got my toughts messing with my head. But enough said regarding my questions. I really do not want to hijack this topic. (good luck f64manray : ) )
 
Raster said:
Yep the G3/Blimp deal is amazing for the price, with only 2 weeks to go. Finishes 31st.

Sounds like you first had the NTG-3 wound way up, hearing everything especially with the Boostaroo in circuit.

BTW which model do you have, I noticed recently a list of cans which match various Boostaroo impedances. The Revolution matches the 7506.

You must have a Juicedlink with 48V, for voice outdoors you probably want its low cut in as the NTG-3 doesn't have one. What recorder are you using?

Don't have the mkh-50 but for voice indoors you have to get as close as sounds good with the room damped way down. I use this rig it's great .. Cheers.

http://www.amazon.com/Harlan-Hogan-Signature-Series-Porta-Booth/dp/B00151YP18
Click to expand...

I was using the Boostaroo Revolution R234-2. Nice little headphone amp for $30.

On the Juiced Link, there is the mic pre knob and a switch for high, medium and Low. I've never encountered this kind of set up on a mixer before, but it's very cool and help matches the mic better to the pre so it can be better attenuated by the mic pre knob.

I had it set to the high setting with the mic pre knob around 3 o'clock. This of course sounded very present monitoring through the Boostaroo head phone amp. There was no distortion so I assumed this is where it should be. I then turned down the gain setting to medium with the pre knob at 2-3 o'clock. The sound through the boostaroo wasn't nearly as present through the 7506 headphones, but tried feeding the source like that to the Canon 5DII anyway. This did wonders for the sound and street noise and crickets from 2 miles away were no longer an issue :-) . Juiced Link has very clean and quiet mic pres.

Frankly, trying to record audio to the 5DII is a royal PITA without Magic Lantern. You can't listen and monitor the audio as your recording. You have to just set it up, monitor through the boostaroo and then give it a go and listen afterwards. Not something I was willing to do.

For Juiced link users, you might be interested to know that Juiced Link will be coming out with a module that will attach to the Juiced link that will feature a head phone amp, level meters, and AGC defeat. This will aid greatly in recording to a camera like the 5DII. I might explore this further when that product is released. For now, I will be going double system with a Zoom H4n and will probably also pick up a (Oade Brothers) Edirol R-44.

Thanks to everyone that responded. The help is greatly appreciated.
 
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mzitnamor said:
Ha.. This actually makes clear the whole situation for this mic with the right words. I agree on this as I'm really pulled into buying the NTG-3 but still got my toughts messing with my head. But enough said regarding my questions. I really do not want to hijack this topic. (good luck f64manray : ) )
Click to expand...

Thanks, I don't want to push you into something you don't need, but this a killer deal right now. The NTG-3 is $699. You get a free boom pole (I think a $150 value) andRode kicks in the $300 blimp for $1. I think this deal is over very soon. This may not come around again.

http://www.dvcreators.net/rode-ntg-3-shotgun-mic/
 
All that for $700 is a B-A-R-G-A-I-N... UNBELIEVABLE, in fact. Don't ever forget that no mic is any better then it's support gear! You NEED a blimp... and you NEED a boom pole.

(Okay, maybe you could get by 75% of the time with only a softie, but you NEED a boom pole... and... for the other 25% of the time that you needed a blimp, you'll be screwed without one.)

Let me put this in simple terms:

A stock mic foam is typically about twice as wind resistant as a bare mic alone... a softie is about twice as wind resistant as that (one-piece fur covered foam)... and a blimp is about twice as wind resistant as that. (Specifically, a bare blimp w/o fur jacket is only a little less wind resistant then a softie... and then once the fur jacket is added it's dramatically more wind resistant. This translates to the most transparent wind protection when the blimp is bare, and the best wind protection with fur... or again, simply put, you need a blimp.)

Okay... let me put that other point into the most simple terms:

People use SOME shotguns indoors all the time. Almost every segment I recorded for History, Travel, Discovery used a Lectro w/ COS11, AND a CS3e... sometimes we used only the CS3e (shotgun) depending on the situation.

A CS3e (Sanken) can do most interiors, below that I'd put the 416 and NTG3... Go back to page 1 of this thread and look at the polar patterns. Realize that those aren't dead-perfect, but you can get an idea of what shotguns can do many interiors by looking at that (and verifying the real-world performance approximates the manufacturer supplied chart).

If a shotgun has very little tail out back, and a relatively smooth bubble out front, then it can do most interiors. Why a cardioid, or hyper does interiors typically better is that there's zero tail on a cardioid, and a very small one on hyper. This means that you can control the size of the bubble (front mic pickup) using gain alone... while putting the unwanted sound or reflection to the rear of the mic, and you get control over the unwanted sound (reflections, etc.) automatically.

So... again, to simplify... any shotguns that have patterns very close to hyper patterns, can do most interiors.

Make sense?

It's not a honeymoon period... it's science. A 416 can do interiors that an me66 couldn't DREAM of doing... and an NTG3 is basically a bargain priced 416, hence it really can do many interiors well. (NOT ALL... have a lav, or cardioid/hyper available).
 
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