Question about freelancing shoots.

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digifruitella

Active member
I'll keep this brief and to the point.

Got in touch with someone who's looking for help because his clientele seems to be growing and he has to turn down gigs at this point. He shoots everything from events like luncheons to weddings.

I was already on one of these shoots.

I've never freelanced as a cameraman before, and what I'm trying to understand is how do I set prices for my work?

Hourly...I told him I can do 25/hr. But for a wedding - which he charges about 1600$ per one - he's willing to go 50/50 (or so he says...)

What I'm curious about is if I should be setting flat rates at all per shoot, or keep going at my hourly rate when we do these smaller events... and do the whole 50/50...

HOWEVER...one "but" that seems to have appeared. He's saying that this one wedding he wants me to shoot solo (as part of me helping him out... while he covers other weddings on same dates or whatnot) - he says the contract for that is 1000$ - which set off an alarm for me as his weddings packages are 1600$. Now I'd take 500$ of that he says, but I asked him why you charging 1000$ if your wedding packages are 1600$...

the thing is, I'm already thinking he's trying to exploit me by being dishonest about what he charges. He says that "let me worry about what I charge people" - which, of course it's his business and all... but I can't help it but feel as if he'll be charging 1600 as he usually does, and not really come through with 50/50 (on wedding I'LL solely be shooting)

Someone with experience, can you help me out setting things straight. On one hand, this is easy money for a few hours - 500, for about 4 hours is still not bad... but then at this point should I be setting flat rates for MY SOLO coverage of weddings as opposed to going "50/50" on contracts I'm not even sure what he charges people with...

As a beginner freelance cameraman, what should I do in this situation?

Please help me out. I've got a shoot with him this Friday (not a wedding, but a brief 3-4 hour event...) and I'd like to hear some answers about prices: flat or hourly in this situation?

I'm also not a noob shooter, he actually likes what I do - so I'm wondering if I should say anything about this... like I don't want to be undervalued for my work if I can be getting honest prices...
 
Just figure out a flat day rate for a 10 hour day that covers you and your gear. Overtime at time and half after that.

Charge that and don't worry about what he charges unless you are entering a binding and legal partnership.

But if you are running the show by yourself FOR HIM you should also tack on extra as that is a hell of a lot more work.
 
i wouldnt really do an hourly rate. even if its a short shoot, statistically its likely you wont be able to book anything else that day. that just tends to be how video shoots work. therefore as was said come up with a rate for ten hour day and possibly a half day (5-hour) rate as well (this will be about 2/3 of your full day rate). there is much debate about whether people should ever do the half day, you can form your own opinion. personally i would rather play nice with clients and do a half day than lose the gig altogether. but DO NOT let them tell you your half day is "too expensive cause its really only a 2/3 hour shoot."
 
Alright. Well then here's another question... is there an "industry standard" minimum rate for a cameraman. Like is 25/hr too low? Maybe there's a "ballpark" rate that I should be aware of as a newbie to freelancing? I know it largely depends on the type of gear you own as well. So for me, I own a GH4, and Zeiss Contax lenses. He shoots everything on DSLRs as well, but his are lower quality than mine. Automatically I have an advantage here. Though if I charge like $300 for a full day, as a beginner freelancer - is that reasonable? He's told me that he might adjust what he charges people once we figure out my rates. But I have absolutely no knowledge of freelance costs / flat rates.

So a full day is like 300... and a half day - 2-4 hour shoot is 150... as I'm calculating. How reasonable are those for someone starting out. I'm not inexperienced shooter or anything, but definitely new to freelancing. Am I undervaluing myself here?

That also would seem like I'm undervaluing myself when it comes down to what he's offering for this current solo wedding gig...

if I set a full day to a $300 flat rate (like 8 hours) and he's offering $500 for like 4 hours of work at a wedding... or this is more a case of a "wedding gig is a different beast..." (because it definitely is) - then logically I should be asking for MINIMUM 500$ on every solo gig I do + the recommended extra of like $200 or so, or $150... how's my math with this?

Again, I appreciate any help immensely about this.
 
Shoots are easy for me, but can't stand the edit time for commercial shoots. Is he taking more of the pie (as he should) if he is doing the post-production?
 
digifruitella said:
Alright. Well then here's another question... is there an "industry standard" minimum rate for a cameraman. Like is 25/hr too low? Maybe there's a "ballpark" rate that I should be aware of as a newbie to freelancing? I know it largely depends on the type of gear you own as well. So for me, I own a GH4, and Zeiss Contax lenses. He shoots everything on DSLRs as well, but his are lower quality than mine. Automatically I have an advantage here. Though if I charge like $300 for a full day, as a beginner freelancer - is that reasonable? He's told me that he might adjust what he charges people once we figure out my rates. But I have absolutely no knowledge of freelance costs / flat rates.

So a full day is like 300... and a half day - 2-4 hour shoot is 150... as I'm calculating. How reasonable are those for someone starting out. I'm not inexperienced shooter or anything, but definitely new to freelancing. Am I undervaluing myself here?

That also would seem like I'm undervaluing myself when it comes down to what he's offering for this current solo wedding gig...

if I set a full day to a $300 flat rate (like 8 hours) and he's offering $500 for like 4 hours of work at a wedding... or this is more a case of a "wedding gig is a different beast..." (because it definitely is) - then logically I should be asking for MINIMUM 500$ on every solo gig I do + the recommended extra of like $200 or so, or $150... how's my math with this?

Again, I appreciate any help immensely about this.
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Rates depend on your area of the country and are highly localized.

In my area, (DC Metro) DP rates are anywhere from $500-950/day for a 10 hour day.

Then you add in a gear rate for your camera package.
 
he's offering you work, for pete's sake. why amateurs always put the gear before the skills and most importantly (WAY more important) the experience and the ability to finish what they start. (because amateurs rarely finish anything): the guy i taking a big chance letting his Clients with an amateur for a Wedding (a WEDDING? to an amateur? what was that?). I wouldn't do that, better to let another pro doing it and get some money as a courtesy from the other pro than risking a lawsuit with an amateur. To you I'd say to join the local Union. Then wait for jobs. Or maybe the guy is another amateur?
Anyway beside joining the Union you should know that a work for hire contract (to be signed BEFORE the work, and not after) will carry the money that the paying part decides, not the other way around. In other words if it says $3/hour then it will be $3/hour.
 
but I can't help it but feel as if he'll be charging 1600 as he usually does, and not really come through with 50/50 (on wedding I'LL solely be shooting)
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To be honest, I think that sounds fair if 16 hundred is the total. Like you said $500 for the day isn't bad. (4 hours....PLEASE my rule of thumb is to tack a minimum of 2 hours onto any 'suggested' shoot time.....I always tell my wife "whatever time I say I'll be home, add 2 hours" and it will usually be much more)

I could never be ****ed to edit a wedding video, but I would guestimate that is where the lion's share of the work will be. So since it's his company and he'll be doing a good portion of the work, the rate he is offering sounds fair. My ballpark rate for a 1st camera wedding shoot (ceremony & reception) depending on the length of time? Minimum $500 to $850 including gear. I've gotten more and less. Hope my rambling helps!

This day rate question gets asked so many times through the years, I almost feel there should be a sticky.
 
Scott F said:
So since it's his company and he'll be doing a good portion of the work, the rate he is offering sounds fair.
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exactly. What many don't understand is the cost of keeping the business rolling, including taxes, insurance, rentals, going to work when you feel sick to keep the reputation and stuff like that. It's not just "his Company" it's also "his Client". And that stuff can't be discussed or evaluated by outsiders, but only by the Owner and his wife (tops). Ive been working as a second shooter too and I still do sometimes to help a colleague but I always got it with gratitude and respect. To my second shooters I give now what's fair depending on the service they provide and the most important thing is that they actually show up in time and finish. That comes even before the money. And of course the instant I see "attitude" and questions about what I get or (horror) discussing with my Client directly THEN they simply will not be my second shooters.
 
onemanband-videomaker said:
he's offering you work, for pete's sake. why amateurs always put the gear before the skills and most importantly (WAY more important) the experience and the ability to finish what they start. (because amateurs rarely finish anything): the guy i taking a big chance letting his Clients with an amateur for a Wedding (a WEDDING? to an amateur? what was that?). I wouldn't do that, better to let another pro doing it and get some money as a courtesy from the other pro than risking a lawsuit with an amateur. To you I'd say to join the local Union. Then wait for jobs. Or maybe the guy is another amateur?
Anyway beside joining the Union you should know that a work for hire contract (to be signed BEFORE the work, and not after) will carry the money that the paying part decides, not the other way around. In other words if it says $3/hour then it will be $3/hour.
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If by amateur you mean the fact that I shoot on DSLR - then I am that, but it's not like I lack experience actually shooting (and shooting competently). And yes, that guy is also "an amateur" because he shoots on DSLRs. What's wrong with that? Not everyone gets to shoot on REDs or Alexas

Either way. Thanks for all of the responses in the thread. I have a slightly better understanding about rates in freelancing.
 
onemanband-videomaker said:
exactly. What many don't understand is the cost of keeping the business rolling, including taxes, insurance, rentals, going to work when you feel sick to keep the reputation and stuff like that. It's not just "his Company" it's also "his Client". And that stuff can't be discussed or evaluated by outsiders, but only by the Owner and his wife (tops). Ive been working as a second shooter too and I still do sometimes to help a colleague but I always got it with gratitude and respect. To my second shooters I give now what's fair depending on the service they provide and the most important thing is that they actually show up in time and finish. That comes even before the money. And of course the instant I see "attitude" and questions about what I get or (horror) discussing with my Client directly THEN they simply will not be my second shooters.
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What you seem to have missed in my overall thread is that I've been trying to find out what is actually reasonable as a day rate / hourly rate within the freelancing community of shooters.It begins with a genuine question, when one isn't knowledgeable about these things. I am respectful to people and to him for offering me gigs. But that is another thing altogether.

Actually - I am not some idiot shooter off the street that doesn't understand the costs of keeping a business "rolling". I completely understand those aspects. But there are also people who try to take advantage of others. Maybe that didn't happen to you, and that's great. I'm trying to prevent that before I even "begin". The point of the thread wasn't about those things. It was about finding out a reasonable price for newcomers into the freelance world. And you go off on some tirade about amateurs and attitudes and all those other things, as if I've offended you or something.
 
digifruitella said:
If by amateur you mean the fact that I shoot on DSLR - then I am that, but it's not like I lack experience actually shooting (and shooting competently). And yes, that guy is also "an amateur" because he shoots on DSLRs. What's wrong with that? Not everyone gets to shoot on REDs or Alexas

Either way. Thanks for all of the responses in the thread. I have a slightly better understanding about rates in freelancing.
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I had the "feeling" that he was also an amateur. Look the gear in a wedding makes a very little no impact at all, if not for the agreed destination of the work that's usually on DVD (so now you probably see why it makes no difference). There are several other "things" WAY more important. To name just one: a stable footage with a canon XL1 will ALWAYS look better than a shaky footage with a 4K camera. But a Wedding is probably the most difficult experience in terms of stress simply because there will be no second take. Stills and video wedding professionals go to work with a couple of Valium pills in the pocket, just in case.. and they may have years of experience. Again in a Wedding anything can and will happen. So you bring two of everything (it's the LAW!). I'm not trying to scare you off, just stating facts. It's not a joke, at all. It's serious.

Now there is nothing your GH4 can't do compared to any alexa or red. it's not important the model of the camera.... don't know how to say it better..it doesn't count LOL

Anyway I strongly suggest to sign a work for hire contract, good for both you and your friend.
 
digifruitella said:
What you seem to have missed in my overall thread is that I've been trying to find out what is actually reasonable as a day rate / hourly rate within the freelancing community of shooters.It begins with a genuine question, when one isn't knowledgeable about these things. I am respectful to people and to him for offering me gigs. But that is another thing altogether.

Actually - I am not some idiot shooter off the street that doesn't understand the costs of keeping a business "rolling". I completely understand those aspects. But there are also people who try to take advantage of others. Maybe that didn't happen to you, and that's great. I'm trying to prevent that before I even "begin". The point of the thread wasn't about those things. It was about finding out a reasonable price for newcomers into the freelance world. And you go off on some tirade about amateurs and attitudes and all those other things, as if I've offended you or something.
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I'm sorry but I already gave you my answer about the money. And I don't think that you understand the "aspects" of doing this for a living. You are not stupid, at all. And I can see that you're starting to take it more and more seriously. Be prepared, study the scenes and locations, look at other footage, try to keep it simple, don't do experiments. You'll be fine. When the wedding will be over I want you to come back and tell us about it. It will help all the new guys entering this fantastic business. Be concerned but go with confidence. Good luck.

P.S. it's his business and his Client. He's giving you work, not taking advantage of you. Please do this gig, stay in the business for 4-5 years and then come back and read your post again when you'll need to hire second shooters. Deal?
 
onemanband-videomaker said:
I had the "feeling" that he was also an amateur. Look the gear in a wedding makes a very little no impact at all, if not for the agreed destination of the work that's usually on DVD (so now you probably see why it makes no difference). There are several other "things" WAY more important. To name just one: a stable footage with a canon XL1 will ALWAYS look better than a shaky footage with a 4K camera. But a Wedding is probably the most difficult experience in terms of stress simply because there will be no second take. Stills and video wedding professionals go to work with a couple of Valium pills in the pocket, just in case.. and they may have years of experience. Again in a Wedding anything can and will happen. So you bring two of everything (it's the LAW!). I'm not trying to scare you off, just stating facts. It's not a joke, at all. It's serious.

Now there is nothing your GH4 can't do compared to any alexa or red. it's not important the model of the camera.... don't know how to say it better..it doesn't count LOL

Anyway I strongly suggest to sign a work for hire contract, good for both you and your friend.
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See, now that's a more helpful post that's full of usable information. The only reason I brought up "gear" in the first place is because I had an understanding it affects price quite a bit. Not just my price as a freelancer, but for any shoot. Hence I asked about it.

So my understanding then is this.

Because he's got a schedule of shoots he wants me to be on - both from Weddings, to smaller, half day events (2-4 hours max). Should this "work for hire contract" be signed once ? or for every one of the shoots? And basically, he says that he will split 50/50 the Wedding shoots with me, the ones I shoot for him. But then for a half-day shoot, like a luncheon event or a performance... I'd set my own flat rate notwithstanding the amount of time it takes; so from 1.5 hours to 4... and let's say the flat rate would be like $300...

Is that fair then, me being a second shooter freelancer going off industry prices...
 
onemanband-videomaker said:
I'm sorry but I already gave you my answer about the money. And I don't think that you understand the "aspects" of doing this for a living. You are not stupid, at all. And I can see that you're starting to take it more and more seriously. Be prepared, study the scenes and locations, look at other footage, try to keep it simple, don't do experiments. You'll be fine. When the wedding will be over I want you to come back and tell us about it. It will help all the new guys entering this fantastic business. Be concerned but go with confidence. Good luck.

P.S. it's his business and his Client. He's giving you work, not taking advantage of you. Please do this gig, stay in the business for 4-5 years and then come back and read your post again when you'll need to hire second shooters. Deal?
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It's a deal...except...as I keep saying... I'm not new to shooting. I am new to freelancing shoots & weddings.
 
I have been in your situation and what I decided to do was come up with a day rate and a half-day rate that was as close as I could deduce to the "split" the production company was going to be offering. That way I could prevent it from becoming "personal" by just saying "this is my standard day rate".

This also helped when that company fielded me out to another company - they told them what my "day rate" was and of course it was a rate I was already cool with so there was no need for any negotiations and they just hired me with no fuss.

Sure, I suppose there are instances where you could squeak a little more money out of some shoots, but that can get messy and end up in broken relationships.
Just declare a rate that you would be happy with and leave it at that. Sometimes "easy" is worth its weight in gold!
 
I've seen hundreds of horror stories and tales of woe in the Cafe. In the grand scheme of things, this guy seems like a pretty good dude to do business with. Given that you are mentioning "a schedule of shoots", I would strike up a relationship.
 
Scott F said:
I've seen hundreds of horror stories and tales of woe in the Cafe. In the grand scheme of things, this guy seems like a pretty good dude to do business with. Given that you are mentioning "a schedule of shoots", I would strike up a relationship.
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So I feel like I should've made this thread before any discussion about prices...

Basically we decided on an hourly rate for standard shoots (half day usually).... which after seeing countless posts from you guys about "full" and "half-day" rates... seems to be a bad idea. And now I either have to tell him that "I spoke to a few people about rates...and they suggested that..." or I take this opportunity (where I win out on the wedding bits, and not on small shoots - which will be hourly...) and go with it...

I will come off as having "second thoughts" and may poo poo this opportunity up... or just go ahead and be honest about these "second thoughts" after gaining the information from you guys.

What to do?
 
the half day/full day thing is a professional video industry standard. not everyone follows it, but that is on them. it solves a lot issues having to do with the extreme unpredictibility if what we do, so youre not haggling over "this was supposed to take 3 hours but it took 5 but im only paying you for 3" kinda stuff.

as to actual dollar amounts, they should be based in experience, WHAT YOUR MARKET WILL BEAR, and gear you provide. there is actually (or used to be) a site out there to calculate your day rate...you input a bunch of info (how often you expect to work, cost of living, etc. etc.) and it spits out a number it recommends you charge per day. anyone know what i mean or have that link?

i can tell you how i do it, which is what makes sense to ME: my labor has one fee, and is subject to the half day /full day rate. gear is priced separately from that and is always a flat rate (of course you can compromise if you must to get jobs but theoretically your cam is x amount per day, period on top of your labor rate, ditto audio and lights etc. where applicable). gear is priced per day at between 2-5% of purchase price ($3000 cam = $150 day, for instance--when you factor in cost of tripod, batts, media, etc., i.e your "camera package" that can actually be significantly higher).

this pricing allows me to work with and without gear with separate rates for each thing (cam/audio/lights), as every shoot is different.
 
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