rob norton
Veteran
What about top rods only with an underslung battery (still from the top rods), essentially raising the "hump"? I tested this set up but the camera ended up being too low, but it wasn't uncomfortable.
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Project shoulder mount
- Thread starter rob norton
- Start date
What about top rods only with an underslung battery (still from the top rods), essentially raising the "hump"? I tested this set up but the camera ended up being too low, but it wasn't uncomfortable.
ahalpert
Major Contributor
This is probably obvious to everyone but me, but what is that plate for? Preventing torque on the cable? Doesn't it stick into your face? Or you're going to strap some gack to it?
rob norton
Veteran
I'm confused because it's one of the few SMM rig components not made from metal.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Its to keep the hdmi and now mic input from being knocked
is the a risk of face contact?
yes.
do i want to shoulder this camera
no
are we shooting a feature with this as b
yes
will you enjoy car rigging it?
yes
does it look similar to the fx9 vs my canons
yes
will it work out?
i dont know
should i use my fs7 instead?
maybe
do they think full frame is important?
yes
do i agree?
no
what about with a speedboster on the FS7
indeed.
----
The film has a lot of car INT rigged. I will be at my fore. The DSLR will be at its fore. The FX9+vct+vlock will be hopeless inside a car.
I want to cross shoot where ever there is dialogue. The production is less convinced. (this will change after day 1)
I blame the internet. There is a myth that these DSLRs are useful for anything but Ccam in a narrative. It is wong.
--
Anyway back to business on the C200.. which IMO is excellent for shoulder rigging, use on a Movi, or hard mounting inside a vehicle. Wonderful.
is the a risk of face contact?
yes.
do i want to shoulder this camera
no
are we shooting a feature with this as b
yes
will you enjoy car rigging it?
yes
does it look similar to the fx9 vs my canons
yes
will it work out?
i dont know
should i use my fs7 instead?
maybe
do they think full frame is important?
yes
do i agree?
no
what about with a speedboster on the FS7
indeed.
----
The film has a lot of car INT rigged. I will be at my fore. The DSLR will be at its fore. The FX9+vct+vlock will be hopeless inside a car.
I want to cross shoot where ever there is dialogue. The production is less convinced. (this will change after day 1)
I blame the internet. There is a myth that these DSLRs are useful for anything but Ccam in a narrative. It is wong.
--
Anyway back to business on the C200.. which IMO is excellent for shoulder rigging, use on a Movi, or hard mounting inside a vehicle. Wonderful.
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ahalpert
Major Contributor
Wouldn't it be advantageous here to use a right-angle HDMI?
Also, sounds like maybe a C70 with a speedbooster would satisfy all interested parties? (Although you already have a C200 and it shoots RAW etc etc)
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
The word on the strasse is that canon wont intercut with the Pony easily.. especially when cross shooting.
My C200 is living on my movi.. (! which wont be cross shooting it will be jibbing the masters and doing chase work)
Im not buying any special leads for the production., I dont think an L hdmi would help much.
Ive already bought a dummy battery for the atomos who are too stupid to put a power in connector on thier monitor.
A C70 is also crippled for narrative shoulder work by having no SDI and an HDMI that is positioned by a moron.
We will see how much narrative shoulder happens (my guess is a lot) if the camera is utter garbage I will use my FS7 or C200
My C200 is living on my movi.. (! which wont be cross shooting it will be jibbing the masters and doing chase work)
Im not buying any special leads for the production., I dont think an L hdmi would help much.
Ive already bought a dummy battery for the atomos who are too stupid to put a power in connector on thier monitor.
A C70 is also crippled for narrative shoulder work by having no SDI and an HDMI that is positioned by a moron.
We will see how much narrative shoulder happens (my guess is a lot) if the camera is utter garbage I will use my FS7 or C200
rob norton
Veteran
update, thank you all for your patience:
A couple of CAMVATE parts arrived - a gold mount battery plate, as well as a rosette extension.
From here, I'll probably grab the core sharkfin, which will let me stack 2x micro batteries vertically - https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1691334-REG/core_swx_gp_tamicro_3_stud_micro_camera_battery.ht ml.
I think it's more practical to think in terms of an ENG set up and a production/cine set up. The main difference being allowing for rod mounted handles, extra accessories like a wireless system, (hopefully) a heavier, non-stills lens, and likely underslinging the batteries as Charles described for better balance and precise shooting.
The rosette extension already feels too short but this is a good place to start. Pictured is the cobbled together monitor mount, which will get cleaned up (shorter rod, fewer or more minimal parts where possible), but good to know I can easily get the monitor far enough out.
ATM it's feeling pretty balanced, with options to go more front or back heavy. One emerging goal is to not have everything so long to the point of being impractical, which is where the dual batteries are helping. For actual use, I'll shorten the entire rig, which means I'll need to keep pushing the camera further back as the batteries move closer to the camera.
Looking at the camera comfort cushion, if too far away from the neck, you're then fighting the downwards slope of the shoulder. The camera has rolled - after working so hard to balance everything! One of the reasons the ergorig looks great, which I haven't seen mentioned much, is that it avoids needing to conform to the sloping shoulder, so gives you a level area. However, you'd likely use the CCC in the one part where it's most level, closest to the neck. I guess the remaining real esatate, even if unused while shooting, would still be helpful for resting etc.
We need a positive slope cushion, which ends up flat once the camera has been added?
EDIT: I just put a full sized cinesaddle on my shoulder and despite being too big, the shoulder area was very comfortable and pretty easy to get a level camera to the point of being able to let go with my hands. The full size CS is obviously too big but even the tiny saddle (https://www.cinekinetic-au.com/product-page/tiny-saddle) or some other cushion with strap (or without) might be all that's needed.
Is this what the asymmetrical kasbah is going for?
A couple of CAMVATE parts arrived - a gold mount battery plate, as well as a rosette extension.
From here, I'll probably grab the core sharkfin, which will let me stack 2x micro batteries vertically - https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1691334-REG/core_swx_gp_tamicro_3_stud_micro_camera_battery.ht ml.
I think it's more practical to think in terms of an ENG set up and a production/cine set up. The main difference being allowing for rod mounted handles, extra accessories like a wireless system, (hopefully) a heavier, non-stills lens, and likely underslinging the batteries as Charles described for better balance and precise shooting.
The rosette extension already feels too short but this is a good place to start. Pictured is the cobbled together monitor mount, which will get cleaned up (shorter rod, fewer or more minimal parts where possible), but good to know I can easily get the monitor far enough out.
ATM it's feeling pretty balanced, with options to go more front or back heavy. One emerging goal is to not have everything so long to the point of being impractical, which is where the dual batteries are helping. For actual use, I'll shorten the entire rig, which means I'll need to keep pushing the camera further back as the batteries move closer to the camera.
Looking at the camera comfort cushion, if too far away from the neck, you're then fighting the downwards slope of the shoulder. The camera has rolled - after working so hard to balance everything! One of the reasons the ergorig looks great, which I haven't seen mentioned much, is that it avoids needing to conform to the sloping shoulder, so gives you a level area. However, you'd likely use the CCC in the one part where it's most level, closest to the neck. I guess the remaining real esatate, even if unused while shooting, would still be helpful for resting etc.
We need a positive slope cushion, which ends up flat once the camera has been added?
EDIT: I just put a full sized cinesaddle on my shoulder and despite being too big, the shoulder area was very comfortable and pretty easy to get a level camera to the point of being able to let go with my hands. The full size CS is obviously too big but even the tiny saddle (https://www.cinekinetic-au.com/product-page/tiny-saddle) or some other cushion with strap (or without) might be all that's needed.
Is this what the asymmetrical kasbah is going for?
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rob norton
Veteran
Here's a more compact, shorter set up. The centre point has shifted from just past the rear of the baseplate to somewhere at the rear of the baseplate. Why would any of this matter!!?
At some level, if monitoring audio, which has the pots at the back of the camera, it's more beneficial to have the camera more forward.
But I imagine if operating with handles and not pulling focus or doing sound, the camera shifting backwards will probably be the way to go.
This is all to say it's not only about the balance of accessories but also how you're going to use the camera.
This isn't the nicest looking rig just yet but we are getting there.
At some level, if monitoring audio, which has the pots at the back of the camera, it's more beneficial to have the camera more forward.
But I imagine if operating with handles and not pulling focus or doing sound, the camera shifting backwards will probably be the way to go.
This is all to say it's not only about the balance of accessories but also how you're going to use the camera.
This isn't the nicest looking rig just yet but we are getting there.
CharlesPapert
Director of Photography
I tested out the Kasbah in a pre-release version and as much as I wanted to like it, it didn't really feel conforming enough for me, it felt a bit stiff. I started think about adapting the Purple mattress tech into a shoulder pad--I have slept on their mattress for years and find the open-architecture "waffle" very effective in terms of molding to the body/isolation/good airflow, which are all great things for a pad. But, it's just one of those things I never got around to.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
For shoulder support I think there are choices..
To some extent the right hand position is improtant to consider.
When the right hand is high (like holding the handle of a c200 to have the start stop and focus joystick your shoulder moves up and creates a flat table.
If you are holding long 'moose bars' the shoulder is at a sloped angle.
--
IMO you Cannot have a tripod plate and then a shoulder pad. This will logically mean one setup is not balanced.
You MUST understand that a C200 with 70-200 has a different position of mass vs a nifty 50
A 200mm arca on the cam and 100mm arca on the rig allows for lens swaps.
--
Now you need your shoulder under the CofM..
1) us a tripod plate and take the pain.
fast cheap and light.. good for short shots
2) use a VCT
expensive heavyy slow and comfortable, most excellent if you have a helper to carry your gumph
3)have arca on the bottom of your rig tripod ready
3a) have a shoulder pad with arca receiver combo
great.. but you have a thing to not lose when you are on sticks
4) make some form of bridge arangement in a home brew manner.
MAybe a kesler plate at the front and a 16:9 V at the back with a sholder pad in the middle
Obviously Ive gone for 4 apart from days I go with 1 (seen in page 1 video)
To some extent the right hand position is improtant to consider.
When the right hand is high (like holding the handle of a c200 to have the start stop and focus joystick your shoulder moves up and creates a flat table.
If you are holding long 'moose bars' the shoulder is at a sloped angle.
--
IMO you Cannot have a tripod plate and then a shoulder pad. This will logically mean one setup is not balanced.
You MUST understand that a C200 with 70-200 has a different position of mass vs a nifty 50
A 200mm arca on the cam and 100mm arca on the rig allows for lens swaps.
--
Now you need your shoulder under the CofM..
1) us a tripod plate and take the pain.
fast cheap and light.. good for short shots
2) use a VCT
expensive heavyy slow and comfortable, most excellent if you have a helper to carry your gumph
3)have arca on the bottom of your rig tripod ready
3a) have a shoulder pad with arca receiver combo
great.. but you have a thing to not lose when you are on sticks
4) make some form of bridge arangement in a home brew manner.
MAybe a kesler plate at the front and a 16:9 V at the back with a sholder pad in the middle
Obviously Ive gone for 4 apart from days I go with 1 (seen in page 1 video)
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
I still have shoulder pads to sell that go on 15mm rods.. ill find a pic. They can work on (4)
rob norton
Veteran
Thanks Sam & Charles. I ordered a cinesaddle tiny saddle, to be placed under the camera on the shoulder - https://www.cinekinetic.com/product-page/tiny-saddle.
Again, I'm still waiting on a few pieces, I'll update once they arrive. And I've actually got something to shoot soon with the rig so will have a better report.
Some type of conforming waffle would easily work. It seems like one side just needs to "start higher", before settling in the correct position. I find it strange that most products out there are one size fits all, symmetrical pieces, which need to fit to completely different, asymmetrical bodies. This is also why the Ergorig is great and ZeeGee is genius - take the shoulder out of the equation!
I don't think this is exactly the way to go, but even a stills wildlife U shaped bean bag turned upside down, with extra padding on the right side (between shoulder and bag) so that it comes good once a camera is added, looks like it would help more than a lot of what's out there, if not too tall - https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...ck_pro_jr.html
Again, I'm still waiting on a few pieces, I'll update once they arrive. And I've actually got something to shoot soon with the rig so will have a better report.
Some type of conforming waffle would easily work. It seems like one side just needs to "start higher", before settling in the correct position. I find it strange that most products out there are one size fits all, symmetrical pieces, which need to fit to completely different, asymmetrical bodies. This is also why the Ergorig is great and ZeeGee is genius - take the shoulder out of the equation!
I don't think this is exactly the way to go, but even a stills wildlife U shaped bean bag turned upside down, with extra padding on the right side (between shoulder and bag) so that it comes good once a camera is added, looks like it would help more than a lot of what's out there, if not too tall - https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...ck_pro_jr.html
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DustinSchmidt
Well-known member
It's interesting that you mention a sloped shoulder pad. Letus makes one. You can check it out by searching for "Letus Master Cinema Series Should Pad".
rob norton
Veteran
Thanks Dustin, those are two pretty obvious wedges in the middle. Have you used one?
DustinSchmidt
Well-known member
Hey Rob, no I have not used that pad myself. I just happened to have seen it a few times over the years. Shane Hurlbut has mentioned it a few times in some of his musings on shoulder rigs.
https://www.filmmakersacademy.com/shoulder-mount/
https://www.filmmakersacademy.com/a-shoulder-cam-should-be-heavy/
https://www.filmmakersacademy.com/shoulder-mount/
https://www.filmmakersacademy.com/a-shoulder-cam-should-be-heavy/
rob norton
Veteran
Ok things are starting to get a bit more sensible. I added 12 inch steel rods and a rod mounted dual rosette. On either side is a wooden ball grip (I think kino grip brand) and the canon handgrip. I got rid of the plate for the audio receiver, I might just be able to velcro it to the battery. A single 150wh is letting me balance everything at the moment but good to know I can double up easily if needed.
The monitor is directly in front of my eyes to help keep the neck in a neutral position. I often see good shoulder set ups except the monitor is way too high and the operator tilts their head back to see it.
The right side handgrip currently feels really good. If I were to bend my arm up towards my shoulder, my hand almost exactly ends up in this position. The angled rosette seems like a good idea so far.
EDIT (deleted 2 sentences) ^^ I can't actually comment yet if the angled rosette is a good idea. By the time the fore arm is in line with the upper arm, it may actually be introducing some flexion in the wrist vs. maybe a more neutral wrist with a vertical rosette. It's pretty minor though so I'll have to shoot both ways and see what's more comfortable. Might be overthinking to some but it's one of those things where having the wrist in flexion/extension over lengthy periods can all add up.
This is another interesting difference between ENG type shooting and typical narrative shoulder mounted work where the right hand grip is almost always some type of potato-ish grip with camera function in mind, vs. more stick like grips, which are probably better for composition-first operating. Obviously there's overlap but just generally speaking.
I’m pretty happy with everything so far, now onto the shoulder pad, which should arrive soon. I’ll try to get some photos of me actually operating for my dvxuser debut appearance.
The monitor is directly in front of my eyes to help keep the neck in a neutral position. I often see good shoulder set ups except the monitor is way too high and the operator tilts their head back to see it.
The right side handgrip currently feels really good. If I were to bend my arm up towards my shoulder, my hand almost exactly ends up in this position. The angled rosette seems like a good idea so far.
EDIT (deleted 2 sentences) ^^ I can't actually comment yet if the angled rosette is a good idea. By the time the fore arm is in line with the upper arm, it may actually be introducing some flexion in the wrist vs. maybe a more neutral wrist with a vertical rosette. It's pretty minor though so I'll have to shoot both ways and see what's more comfortable. Might be overthinking to some but it's one of those things where having the wrist in flexion/extension over lengthy periods can all add up.
This is another interesting difference between ENG type shooting and typical narrative shoulder mounted work where the right hand grip is almost always some type of potato-ish grip with camera function in mind, vs. more stick like grips, which are probably better for composition-first operating. Obviously there's overlap but just generally speaking.
I’m pretty happy with everything so far, now onto the shoulder pad, which should arrive soon. I’ll try to get some photos of me actually operating for my dvxuser debut appearance.
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rob norton
Veteran
I think I edited as you posted Abe. Check some previous posts (page 5), I’m working on sourcing some type of pad that lets the rig settle to a level position, rather than trying to fight the roll of an asymmetrical body part with a universal pad. Charles mentioned purple mattress waffle tech. I’m thinking a cine saddle tiny saddle turned upside down rather than worn on the hip.
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DustinSchmidt
Well-known member
A man after my own heart. This is a bit of an older photo of my own C200 rig, as I've upgraded quite a few things since then. But the principle is the same.
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CharlesPapert
Director of Photography
Purple sells a small variety of seat cushions. I have used one for a few years on top of my director's chair and it makes it many times more comfortable. They have one of the lower profile ones on sale at moment if you wanted to mess around with it:
https://purple.com/seat-cushions/car