Production Sound on a Budget

I

Imagination Dave

New member
Hi all, I'm looking to buy some production sound equipment for recording on location with a shotgun mic. I have a budget of $1000 (not strictly speaking, but for argument's sake let's say I do).

It may also be worth noting that the equipment will be used by non-professionals in audio, and in many cases they will be learning about sound and the equipment either as they use it or right before they use it. However, in general, they are technically competent and quick to learn how to use new equipment. Still, this may have some impact regarding features that require someone to have a solid working knowledge / experience with sound in order to really take advantage of.

That said, here's what I think I need. Feel free to let me know if I missed anything important. (I am deliberating avoid a mixer because I don't think my people will have the experience to take advantage of one properly.)

  • shotgun microphone
  • boom pole
  • windscreen
  • XLR cable
  • field recorder

So my question to all of you is, on a budget, what brands / models do you recommend for these items?
I've gone through a bunch of different options (particularly for the mic and recorder), but being of limited audio experience myself, I'm not sure what are the best tradeoffs to make it fit in my budget but still be of the best quality possible.

Thanks!

-- Dave
 
That budget is probably too low to get what your looking for.

But I would highly recommend you not get a mini recorder. They are frustrating for folks who know what they are doing and not a very good learning tool. Something like the Tascam HD-P2 is a much beet recorder, even one of the Marantz (PMD 671 and similar) or in a pinch maybe a FR-2. Recorders like the Zoom have tiny displays and buttons in awkward places. They are generally a pain and people usually just learn to do XYZ in a "set and forget" kind of way. That is part of the reasons you have some very experienced recordists getting great results from them and a lot of inexperienced filmmakers getting mediocre to out right awful results.

Something like the Tascam has a good display with easy to see levels, buttons that are where they should be and are pretty straight forward to operate.

Of course that just shot a lot of your budget.

The Rode shotguns are decent and affordable and pretty rugged. The Rode zeppelin works and doesn't cost a lot.

A decent boom pole will probably cost you $300 - $400 so...

A crappy boom wont save you that much but will be a much bigger PITA to use.

And you left off headphones. You NEED headphones and you NEED good ones. The Sony 7506's (and similar - there are a few models and I forget which are the cheaper) are pretty standard.

If these are sound students you should probably make them buy their own. Less than many text books and they will last a LONG time.
 
You can get a decent boom pole for far less from eBay if you are careful. I'm sure you could get a bad one there too, so again... be careful.

I highly recommend Mogami brand XLR cables. Even though they cost more, the quality of the cable can make a sizable difference in the sound quality, and when you consider what cables can go through sometimes (being dragged across the floor, wrapped up, stepped on, etc...) a poor place to cut corners.


The NTG-3 with the blimp will eat up the entire $1000 budget, so if that really is the limit, you're going to run into a problem right there... it's the one shotgun that everyone everywhere seems to recommend as the lowest-priced shotgun that is actually worth buying, though.

+1 on needing headphones. You will probably want these to block a lot of the outside sound so that the sound engineer is less likely to think an outside noise is in the recording when it was simply something he could hear nearby.
 
The "name brand" of cables means NOTHING in terms of "sound quality". They are a decent predictor of mechanical quality, however. Now really bottom-of-the-barrel cable may have insufficient shielding ("screening") and be more susceptible to ambient electromagnetic interference. But you can't get cable that bad anymore even at Radio Shack. And inept termination with the connectors can result in failure in the field. But IMHO, anyone in this business should at least be able to terminate an XLR connector properly. By "terminate" I mean properly stripping the wire to avoid nicking the conductors, and soldering the wires to the XLR pins. XLR connectors are among the very easiest to terminate.

I never pay premium prices for "name brand" cable. Especially consumer brands like "Monster" are a COMPLETE RIP-OFF and to be avoided at ALL costs, IMHO.

For a $1K budget, I agree that a Rode shotgun and blimp and a pair of good headphones would be the best use of the initial budget. You can add other equipment later as you find you really need it (and have additional budget.) As a generic rule, the quality of the transducers (microphone, headphones, speakers, etc.) is the place where you get the MOST bang for the buck. I would even live with a painter's pole for a year or two until I could afford a decent boom, just to have the $$$ to spend on a quality microphone. IMHO, cables are almost "consumables" and don't factor into capital budgets.
 
>>>>The "name brand" of cables means NOTHING in terms of "sound quality". ... I never pay premium prices for "name brand" cable. Especially consumer brands like "Monster" are a COMPLETE RIP-OFF and to be avoided at ALL costs, IMHO.<<<<

It should be noted that these are pretty controversial/not universally accepted statements in the audio world, but I tend to agree with RC on this-- a decent cable is a cable is a cable. Although you will find companies that will be happy to charge you two to three times as much. Other folks _swear_ that they can hear a _huge_ difference based on the audio or instrument cable used. Perhaps my ears aren't developed enough after thirty years of production, but I think any balanced cable sounds the same as any other...

www.audiopile.net

GJ

PS-- No personal connection to AudioPile; just a satisfied shopper.
 
You did mention you are starting out so here is a short list of something that you can start with and expand on or use as back-ups when your needs grow:

Audio Technica AT875R about $200
Sterling ST31 Hypercardioid about $99
Ebay Boom pole about $150 (some decent ones around that)
Ebay shock mount about $29
Ebay Fuzzy for the AT875 about $29
Tascam DR-40 about $199
2 x Mica cables about $50
Sony MDR7506 about $90

Done... send me whats left over...lol



seriously this will get you going, can you improve on that ? of course, but that IS the basic tools you need to get a decent recording. I think most that have real experience will agree.

can you do better with more money? yes.

but you can do worst by going any cheaper.

Hope that helps.
 
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I think it depends on how quickly you need that stuff. In the marketplace there was a k-tek boom for less. Not carbon though.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?268730-K-Tek-Boom-brand-new-shockmount&highlight=

Doing ebay etc. You might save enough for a mixer. And the tascam dr 40 has a $15 rebate right now and I picked mine up for 156 from B&H when it was on sale so net it will be 141. My point to all this is I think recordwhiz gave you a nice list. If you can mix and match and are not in a hurry, you can spend the same amount but add a couple of other items or get his list but spend a little less. It is like movie making, you can make it fast, cheap, or good. You can only do 2 of 3 (generally). Same thing with building a sound kit.
 
Richard Crowley said:
The "name brand" of cables means NOTHING in terms of "sound quality". They are a decent predictor of mechanical quality, however. Now really bottom-of-the-barrel cable may have insufficient shielding ("screening") and be more susceptible to ambient electromagnetic interference.
Click to expand...

Check more carefully: not all cables are created equally. People going from cheap to cheap, or some of the overpriced brands (like Monster) are unlikely to notice a difference... but many people switching from HOSA or Monster to Mogami have been shocked at the difference in the sound quality -- not just in the mechanical quality.

There are a few brands at the top (Mogami that I know of; I've seen references to Blue being up there too), then most others are in the middle, and the cheapos at the bottom.

You may not notice much difference among the middle or bottom brands, but there is a distinct difference among the higher-quality brands.

Even if you don't notice a difference in the sound quality, you definitely want to get cables that can stand up to abuse -- and that is something I think we do agree on; Mogami gold series, or if some other brand then something designed for stage/location use. Some cables simply won't last as long and you'll end up paying for them over and over again.
 
Going back to the OP question without excess drift.

The op didn't state what he was recording, where, or with what type of cam, and that makes a difference to a good recommendation on a budget. If you are using a video cam with XLR inputs, then I would record to that and buy a modestly priced mixer to go in front. If you need dual sound because you are shooting hdslr, then you are much more limited by budget. Here is a very basic shotgun kit, complete with horrors, an aluminum pole and Audio Technica cables.

$225 Rode NTG-1
75 Suspension there are many
60 Rode WS6 windshield
180 K-Tek aluminum pole
50 AT XLR cable cables (2-3)
100 Sennheiser 280 headphones
230 Tascam DR-100 (Present price at BH shipped)
110 Petrol Decca mixer bag...(only if you buy a mixer or better recorder)

And if you can afford it
470 PSC ProMix 3 channel mixer

Everyone will pick this kit to pieces, and rightly so, since it has plenty of significant compromises. But you need sound on a budget and this will get you started. It will sound miles better than an on cam mic using the fundamental components of pro-audio, but with very entry level gear.

A real problem to be solved with any of the little cheapo recorders is how to use them from a bag, so you can solve this with velcro or some other trick TBD. I have on a couple of occasions mounted a DR-100 directly to a pole....but don't expect to ride any levels doing so, but at least you can see the display. Like I said, you will have compromises. One other thought would be to go with a better recorder and skip the mixer. If you are only recording one channel, many of the recorders can do that without a mixer, and WILL work in a small bag.

Ok everyone, let the pecking begin.

Grant
 
Excuse the drift...

fde101 said:
Check more carefully: not all cables are created equally. People going from cheap to cheap, or some of the overpriced brands (like Monster) are unlikely to notice a difference... but many people switching from HOSA or Monster to Mogami have been shocked at the difference in the sound quality -- not just in the mechanical quality.
Click to expand...

I'm with RC on this. Cheap undersized cable over a long run VS a good cable, probably. 25' of anything in the middle up I don't buy it and have never heard it. I have some very nice cables that are in theory should sound better. Can't say I noticed a difference. I got them because they were custom to my needs and are extremely flexible and very well made. So I bought for build.

But to get back to the topic. Even assuming there was a noticeable difference it will be much smaller than upgrading other parts of this kit. So at $1K even if I thought there was a difference I would still have the OP get some basic decent cables.
 
If you *do* happen to have XLR inputs and headphone jack on the camera:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/421940-REG/Rode_NTG_2_Shotgun_Microphone.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/318715-REG/Mogami_GOLD_STUDIO_25_Gold_Studio_XLR_Male.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/240764-REG/Sennheiser_HD_280PRO_HD_280_Pro.html


NTG-2 kit with boompole, windscreen, etc. - $604.95
Mogami 25' Cable - $55.56 x 2
Sennheiser 280 Headphones (to borrow from above list, seems fine) - $99.95

You're still under $900 with that list. Sub out the better cables to make the recorder fit within the price range if needed, as there are some cables in the NTG-2 kit I linked to (then get the better ones later)... don't if you have those features on your camera and can record to that.


As to the side discussion (and with this I step out): http://www.gearslutz.com/board/low-end-theory/39318-mogami-vs-monster-vs.html http://www.thegearpage.net/board/archive/index.php/t-501048.html http://www.rig-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88384&start=0 http://www.rig-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=26133 http://www.zzounds.com/productreview--MOGGSTU (note: I didn't post on any of those and found these quite easily with a Google search)
 
fde101 said:
... many people switching from HOSA or Monster to Mogami have been shocked at the difference in the sound quality....
Click to expand...

I'm with you on the mechanical integrity and even the build quality. But please forgive me if I don't buy into the "shocked at the difference" claim without an impartial double-blind experiment.

I have made all my own cables since I was in high-school. I have used cheap, moderate, and high-priced cable and connectors. I have never perceived any difference in sound quality between them. Certainly cheaper cable and connectors don't hold up as well in the field, but they do NOT influence sonic quality. Sorry, I've never believed in the "golden ears" theories. Nor have I ever seen any convincing double-blind studies demonstrating that people hear a significant difference.

Now, all of my work is location, and not in a pristine studio. Perhaps that is why I've never heard the difference. Certainly the kinds of noise levels one puts up with on location could mask any possible subtle differences in things like cables, etc.
 
I'm actually making some XLR cables today from bulk Canare Starquad.
For .48 cents a foot why would you bother with anything cheaper.

canare.jpg
 
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