Product confusion: recorder/preamp/mixer

R

Rider

Active member
The more I look at my options, the more I get confused.

It looks like there is a category of products called "recorder" but many (all?) of them also have a preamp (with or without XLR phantom power support) and some mixing capability.

"Preamps" also seem to have mixing capability as well, and often XLR phantom power support. Some preamps connect to a computer, some do not.

"Mixers" may or may not have pre-amps.

While "recorders" often have preamps and a very rudimentary mixing capability, "preamps" and "mixers" don't record, ever.

It appears that most of the confusion or overlap is at the mid-end of the market, which is where I am.

My primary goal is to have one mic recorded very, very cleanly. I'd like to be able to monitor what the preamp is outputting and what the recorder is hearing. I'd like to have different output options (1/8" mic, level and headphone; RCA; digital (mabe via USB); and XLR), especially if the unit does not record. I'd like to be able to send the output to two recorders (one of which would be a DSLR; ideally one recorder would be internal to the preamp). To do all of this with two mics and be able to set their levels separately would great, but I don't think I need to be able to mix in the field.

To have all of this in a portable package that can be operated on battery power or external DC power, and that can live comfortably alongside a DSLR or on top of a desk would be awesome.

Is there any such creature out there?
 
I suggest you get a copy of Home Recording for Musicians by Craig Anderton, it should hold your hand through the confusion. Most of your specifics can be answered by looking at the specs for the the devices you are looking at. What is and isn't possible depends a lot on $$$.
 
As per Noiz's "perspective" thread what is your goal? What you will use in the field will be very different than what will hook up to your computer; things that do both are few and far between. And what is your budget?
 
RE reading my post I realize it might have come off a bit snippy. But you really should get some basics under your belt and asking questions that broad in a forum isn't the best way to do it. Craigs book is an excellent explanation of the signal chain in very non techie terms. THe Yamaha "Sound reinforcement Handbook" is also a great place to go look stuff up but it's not quite as newbe friendly. There is also a book by Jay Rose that a lot of people like, but I haven't read it so?

And Bob is quite right that if you explain what you want to do with the gear your going to get much more on point responses (darn I should have said that first ;~) ).
 
Sound Ninja, I didn't think it was snippy. Try harder next time!

What I want right now is to record voice for video.

As I learn more I will want to do more so I need to strike a balance between what I need now and what I will need in the future.
 
I already have a shotgun mic (Rode NTG-2). I am looking for preamp/recording/mixing options. I am not interested in voice over at the moment.
 
Rider said:
...What I want right now is to record voice for video.

...
Click to expand...

"Voice for video" encompasses a very broad spectrum of situations. Are you shooting dramatic dialog, indoors or outdoors or both? Are you doing sit down interviews, or perhaps a reporter doing streeters? Will you be working on a sound-stage, in an office or home, out in a field for a hunting show or in an open boat fishing? Or is it a 'voice' performaing vocal music? etc etc etc. You said you want it recorded cleanly and clearly - that's a given - but what you'll need in order to accomplish that is highly dependent on both the exact circumstances under which you'll be working and the specific nature of the source material.
 
Well, without (again) mentioning your budget:

PMD-660
FR2-LE
HD-P2
R-44

Modded versions - improved mic pres, etc. - are available from Oade Brothers for not much more additional cost.
 
I was previously considering a Zoom H4n, but backed away because I am not sure about the pre-amp and I want something more solid, although the portability is quite attractive.

So now I am leaning towards having a small but solid pre-amp of a high quality that will last a long time (both physically and technologically). The Juicedlink DT454 is also on my RADAR screen, although I don't like the fact that you can't monitor what the recorder is recording (you can only monitor what the Juicedlink unit is outputting).

Does that give you an idea of my budget? It's not set in stone because I'm researching what's available. And as I mentioned, I have a Rode NTG-2, which for me is a big investment (until I can tell the difference between this and the $2000 Senn).
 
Rider,

Without knowing your budget, the following would bring you good karma, happiness and mirth:

Tascam DR100 (in addition to Unclebobs suggestions recorder suggestions)
Sound Designs Mix-Pre or preferably a Sound Designs 302 mixer.

The DR100 + SD302 will set you back about $1500

Grant
 
Rider,

I just read your post about not wanting seperate devices. The reality is that if you want full function, there aren't many choices. I went down your same road a few years back, and after a while the cold hard reality set in. Some of the more modest recorders will have useable gain control, but nothing like a true mixer. One exception is the SD522 which is north of $2500.

Grant
 
ggrantly said:
The DR100 + SD302 will set you back about $1500
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I was wondering whether it's possible tp avoid doubling up in this way. When you buy a DR-100, in addition to the A/D converter and recorder, you get mics, pre-amp and mixer which I would have no use for. Isn't there a market for an SD-302 device that also records? But this is all above my price point until I hear the difference in my work.

To clarify further: isn't it a bit of waste to get great sound in the SD302 and then output it through an unbalanced cable to a portable recorder (which is no longer portable because it's dangling off of an SD302)?
 
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ggrantly said:
Rider,

I just read your post about not wanting seperate devices. The reality is that if you want full function, there aren't many choices. I went down your same road a few years back, and after a while the cold hard reality set in. Some of the more modest recorders will have useable gain control, but nothing like a true mixer. One exception is the SD522 which is north of $2500.

Grant
Click to expand...


You must mean the SD552, which is 2900 at B&H. That does seem like a sweet device.
 
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Rider,

What you are going to find is the pre-amps in the SD products are going to trump most of the sub-$1000 recorders. The point of the mixer is to give you features not usually found on cheapo recorders.

Usually you will use XLRs out of the mixer if the recorder has a line in option on its XLRs. Even if using unbalanced, the short cable length will make this a non-issue since usually the mixer is next to the recorder in a sound bag harnessed to the recordist.

Yes the 522 would be nice, but it is still only 2 channels, so it is somewhat limiting. If that is what you need, it would be awesome.

Do some more research, you will find my previous statement that a sd302 + somebodies recorder is pretty wonderful. It may not make sense to have two devices, but you will be swimming upsteam to avoid the reality. If you are going to skip the mixer, look for the recorder with the best manual controls.

Grant
 
And now we're back to the main problem with DSLRs and audio. While there are some tricks (like jamming one input with high level), the AGC built into DSLRs make them all but useless for production sound. In addition, DLSRs (as far as I know) do not provide a way of monitoring sound, which means you can't get a confidence return back to the mixer. As a part-time location sound mixer/recordist, most of my work comes from the DSLR shooters. This is not a bad thing and brings filmmaking back to the time when sound people focused on sound, and image people focused on image.



Rider said:
I'm thinking of getting a mixer and skipping the recorder by plugging the mixer right into the DSLR.
Click to expand...
 
gpforet said:
And now we're back to the main problem with DSLRs and audio. While there are some tricks (like jamming one input with high level), the AGC built into DSLRs make them all but useless for production sound. In addition, DLSRs (as far as I know) do not provide a way of monitoring sound, which means you can't get a confidence return back to the mixer. As a part-time location sound mixer/recordist, most of my work comes from the DSLR shooters. This is not a bad thing and brings filmmaking back to the time when sound people focused on sound, and image people focused on image.
Click to expand...

That is very relevant to my question! Do you find the DSLR audio files to be very difficult to work with, even when the AGC is jammed?
 
gpforet said:
In addition, DLSRs (as far as I know) do not provide a way of monitoring sound.
Click to expand...

Most DSLRs have an HDMI and/or A/V output, one or both of which can be rigged to monitor sound if you're willing to go through the trouble of figuring it out. Everything about DSLR video requires work-around, that's par for the course.
 
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