Pro8mm format anyone????
- Thread starter reelmike
- Start date
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: Pro8mm format anyone????
Pro8mm is Super 8mm film. They take Kodak 35mm stocks, slit 'em into 8mm strips, and load them into Super 8 film cartridges.
There are two or three problems with Pro8mm... one, it's exorbitantly expensive, more expensive than 16mm. Two, the quality is the lowest I've experienced from a Super8 lab. Three, Kodak offers Vision 200T negative film in a cartridge, so there's no reason to buy Vision 200T from Pro8mm at their inflated prices and service level when you can just go to Yale and get friendly service and much more competitive prices.
Kodak was supposed to come out with Vision2 500T as well, don't know if they ever did.
Why do they want to shoot on Super 8? If it's for the "look" of Super 8, that mostly comes from Kodachrome 40, the most famous and prevalent of the Super 8 stocks, and you don't need Pro8 for that. If it's to use negative films, it's much more convenient, cost efficient, and yields much better image quality to just use 16mm in the first place. What specifically do they want about Pro8 -- there may be a better/easier/cheaper way to get there rather than involving Pro8mm.
Pro8mm is Super 8mm film. They take Kodak 35mm stocks, slit 'em into 8mm strips, and load them into Super 8 film cartridges.
There are two or three problems with Pro8mm... one, it's exorbitantly expensive, more expensive than 16mm. Two, the quality is the lowest I've experienced from a Super8 lab. Three, Kodak offers Vision 200T negative film in a cartridge, so there's no reason to buy Vision 200T from Pro8mm at their inflated prices and service level when you can just go to Yale and get friendly service and much more competitive prices.
Kodak was supposed to come out with Vision2 500T as well, don't know if they ever did.
Why do they want to shoot on Super 8? If it's for the "look" of Super 8, that mostly comes from Kodachrome 40, the most famous and prevalent of the Super 8 stocks, and you don't need Pro8 for that. If it's to use negative films, it's much more convenient, cost efficient, and yields much better image quality to just use 16mm in the first place. What specifically do they want about Pro8 -- there may be a better/easier/cheaper way to get there rather than involving Pro8mm.
Bermudaforce
Well-known member
Re: Pro8mm format anyone????
If your client wants to shoot on Super8 then let them pay for the entire process, cause I think it's just a waste of money. You could save the money and buy filters for the DVX. There's all sorts of effects to make your film look like super8. Save time and money..
If your client wants to shoot on Super8 then let them pay for the entire process, cause I think it's just a waste of money. You could save the money and buy filters for the DVX. There's all sorts of effects to make your film look like super8. Save time and money..
Re: Pro8mm format anyone????
I couldn't agree more. Basically, the project is a 13 week travel series. For some reason, one of the producers wants to shoot it with Pro8mm???? I can't figure out why. I have done a little reasearch and have looked at some Pro8mm footage and I am not impressed at all. I am not sure if this producer is misinformed about Pro8mm or if he has a fixation with film. What should I do? Should I try to persuade him into using another format? Can anybody give me some points/advice that would help with my argument? Thanks Guys! Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Michael
I couldn't agree more. Basically, the project is a 13 week travel series. For some reason, one of the producers wants to shoot it with Pro8mm???? I can't figure out why. I have done a little reasearch and have looked at some Pro8mm footage and I am not impressed at all. I am not sure if this producer is misinformed about Pro8mm or if he has a fixation with film. What should I do? Should I try to persuade him into using another format? Can anybody give me some points/advice that would help with my argument? Thanks Guys! Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Michael
Re: Pro8mm format anyone????
I shot a lot of the Super 8 Sound / Kodak 200' stocks when they first started converting the Vision series that Barry referred to.
It is an expensive process, and only two or three cameras were (are) able to take the 200' loads they made for commercial production: the Elmo (no relation to the red puppet) and the Beaulieu 7008 which was also crystal sync.
You are welcome to use my Elmo if you would like - it shoots 24 frame, but is not considered crystal.
I'd recommend shooting a test with the DVX (for the client) in 24pa, slightly overexposing your images in-camera and then finding a Magic Bullet plug-in to crush it back down and introduce contrast.
Hypersaturating primary colors and fogging oversaturated areas (it was very difficult to properly expose the original Kodak reversal stocks) will accurately mimick the look of home movies.
Many will tell you that the relative resolution of film stocks is up to 100 lines per millimeter - placing Super 8 at about 400 lines based on a its vertical measurement in mm. Regardless of what anyone will tell you, it does not have the resolving quality of the 480 (525) lines you see on your DVX. You might well consider playing with softening your focus in post as well.
I'd take a second DVX camera strictly for use as the Super8 unit and help your client find better ways to spend their money - hmm, how about doubling your per-diem?!
;D
e
I shot a lot of the Super 8 Sound / Kodak 200' stocks when they first started converting the Vision series that Barry referred to.
It is an expensive process, and only two or three cameras were (are) able to take the 200' loads they made for commercial production: the Elmo (no relation to the red puppet) and the Beaulieu 7008 which was also crystal sync.
You are welcome to use my Elmo if you would like - it shoots 24 frame, but is not considered crystal.
I'd recommend shooting a test with the DVX (for the client) in 24pa, slightly overexposing your images in-camera and then finding a Magic Bullet plug-in to crush it back down and introduce contrast.
Hypersaturating primary colors and fogging oversaturated areas (it was very difficult to properly expose the original Kodak reversal stocks) will accurately mimick the look of home movies.
Many will tell you that the relative resolution of film stocks is up to 100 lines per millimeter - placing Super 8 at about 400 lines based on a its vertical measurement in mm. Regardless of what anyone will tell you, it does not have the resolving quality of the 480 (525) lines you see on your DVX. You might well consider playing with softening your focus in post as well.
I'd take a second DVX camera strictly for use as the Super8 unit and help your client find better ways to spend their money - hmm, how about doubling your per-diem?!
;D
e
BLUESPIDER
DVXuser Ninja
Re: Pro8mm format anyone????
Get Barry's DVD and show them what the DVX is capable of doing.
Get Barry's DVD and show them what the DVX is capable of doing.
Bermudaforce
Well-known member
Re: Pro8mm format anyone????
Are your producers old school?? You got to show them footage shot on dvx and compare with the 8. 13 weeks.. man i'll save the budget on food and gas!
Are your producers old school?? You got to show them footage shot on dvx and compare with the 8. 13 weeks.. man i'll save the budget on food and gas!
Re: Pro8mm format anyone????
clients never seem to know what they need, just what they want.
if you can get the samples of pro 8 you looked at and do a side by side comparison with DVX footage (or a higher quality DV camera) with approximated budgets for the two formats, that might do the trick.
clients never seem to know what they need, just what they want.
if you can get the samples of pro 8 you looked at and do a side by side comparison with DVX footage (or a higher quality DV camera) with approximated budgets for the two formats, that might do the trick.
Re: Pro8mm format anyone????
also, i have a friend who who a film last year half on super 16 and half on the dvx. You could certainly tell the difference (the 16 had much nicer contrast and detail), but it was not jarring enough to separate the two looks. So if super 16 looked that similar, i imagine the pro 8 would look lousy in comparison.
also, i have a friend who who a film last year half on super 16 and half on the dvx. You could certainly tell the difference (the 16 had much nicer contrast and detail), but it was not jarring enough to separate the two looks. So if super 16 looked that similar, i imagine the pro 8 would look lousy in comparison.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: Pro8mm format anyone????
For overall quality, yes the Pro8 will look "lousy" in comparison, but Pro8/Super8 has a very distinct "look" to it. Most people don't shoot Super8 when they're looking for high quality, as 16mm is so dramatically superior. They shoot Super8 because they want the Super8 look (usually).
I believe it'd be easy, very easy, to simulate that look with the DVX, but you'd first have to determine if that's what the client wants. Ask them why they want Pro8... they may have a good reason. If they don't know what they want, try to educate them as to what they'll get so that they can wisely spend their budget to get the look they want. If they know exactly what they want, then that's what you should give them, of course.
For overall quality, yes the Pro8 will look "lousy" in comparison, but Pro8/Super8 has a very distinct "look" to it. Most people don't shoot Super8 when they're looking for high quality, as 16mm is so dramatically superior. They shoot Super8 because they want the Super8 look (usually).
I believe it'd be easy, very easy, to simulate that look with the DVX, but you'd first have to determine if that's what the client wants. Ask them why they want Pro8... they may have a good reason. If they don't know what they want, try to educate them as to what they'll get so that they can wisely spend their budget to get the look they want. If they know exactly what they want, then that's what you should give them, of course.
Re: Pro8mm format anyone????
Could this forum really get any better?????? Honestly, you guys are awesome! Thanks for all your feeback and help. My impression, after talking with the producer is that he is considering Pro8mm only because it is "FILM" and when he mentions the word film to the show sponsors, their faces light up. Not becuase he needs the "Super 8mm" look, because afterall that look is very distinct. After talking with him, he has conceded to consider other formats. As suggest by each of you, we are going to run some tests this next week.
Their is a possibility that we will need another DP for the show. Here is the quick and Dirty. 13 wks travel, all over the US and parts of the world. $650.00-$900.00 per day. All expenses. Let me know if any of you are interested and I will keep you posted.
Could this forum really get any better?????? Honestly, you guys are awesome! Thanks for all your feeback and help. My impression, after talking with the producer is that he is considering Pro8mm only because it is "FILM" and when he mentions the word film to the show sponsors, their faces light up. Not becuase he needs the "Super 8mm" look, because afterall that look is very distinct. After talking with him, he has conceded to consider other formats. As suggest by each of you, we are going to run some tests this next week.
Their is a possibility that we will need another DP for the show. Here is the quick and Dirty. 13 wks travel, all over the US and parts of the world. $650.00-$900.00 per day. All expenses. Let me know if any of you are interested and I will keep you posted.
J_Barnes
Veteran
Re: Pro8mm format anyone????
damn, i'm interested...stupid government job and their "no sunshine" policy...
If you still want to split the difference, you could always use an MOS 16mm or 8mm camera for B-Roll shooting. It's corny sometimes, but you could satisfy your producers desire for "film" without incurring too much extra expense...especially if you shoot reversal.
damn, i'm interested...stupid government job and their "no sunshine" policy...
If you still want to split the difference, you could always use an MOS 16mm or 8mm camera for B-Roll shooting. It's corny sometimes, but you could satisfy your producers desire for "film" without incurring too much extra expense...especially if you shoot reversal.
Re: Pro8mm format anyone????
I, too, would like to hear more about this possiblity.
I, too, would like to hear more about this possiblity.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: Pro8mm format anyone????
13 weeks travelling the US? Sounds interesting. I'll send you a PM.
13 weeks travelling the US? Sounds interesting. I'll send you a PM.
Beat Takeshi
Two-Hip Shakur
Re: Pro8mm format anyone????
I PMed also. I would love to do this.
I PMed also. I would love to do this.
John Michaels
Member
I agree with the issue of both poor quality and customer service that Pro8mm offers. With all this, their prices are still the highest in the industry. I say this from my own personal experience. But, if you have trouble believing it, then just have a look at some of the forums.
Recently, I have had experience with a new company, Spectra Film and Video. They were formerly "Spectra American Color Labs" and relocated with new services. This includes some of the best E-6 ektachrome/velvia, ECN-2 color neg and black and white processing in the industry. Also included is on-site rank transfer service.
They really specialize in high quality 35mm and 16mm as a "pro" film facility. But, they are also offering their expertise in high-end processing and telecine for the super 8 format as well. They even have an inventory of fresh films from Kodak (including Kodak's new Vision2 500 and 200 ASA stocks for super 8).
They sell discounted 16 and super 8 packages with superior quality fresh film, processing and telecine at lower price than Pro8mm.
These guys know a lot about shooting film and are great to deal with. Highly recommended. :thumbsup: www.spectrafilmandvideo.com
Recently, I have had experience with a new company, Spectra Film and Video. They were formerly "Spectra American Color Labs" and relocated with new services. This includes some of the best E-6 ektachrome/velvia, ECN-2 color neg and black and white processing in the industry. Also included is on-site rank transfer service.
They really specialize in high quality 35mm and 16mm as a "pro" film facility. But, they are also offering their expertise in high-end processing and telecine for the super 8 format as well. They even have an inventory of fresh films from Kodak (including Kodak's new Vision2 500 and 200 ASA stocks for super 8).
They sell discounted 16 and super 8 packages with superior quality fresh film, processing and telecine at lower price than Pro8mm.
These guys know a lot about shooting film and are great to deal with. Highly recommended. :thumbsup: www.spectrafilmandvideo.com