Practical Muzzle Flash HELP ???

[djbobbyrhodes]

I'm going to be shooting some battle scenes for a short I'm doing.

We'll be shooting at dusk/night in a forest for a very specific scene which will require multiple people "shooting" their guns.

I could go through, try and find each trigger pull and add the effect in AE. But I don't think it will look very good, and it will be a huge pain. i.e. adding fake light on the many, many edges of all the trees. Cost/reward ratio isn't adding up here.

So, what I'm thinking of is somehow rigging up a light or a disposable camera flash to each gun. And on the trigger pull, the flash will go off. The only issue with this idea is that I'm not very handy when it comes to electrical component type stuff.

Anybody ever done anything similar to this?
Got ANY ideas on how to make this work?
Or have a better solution?

Anything!!! It would be greatly appreciated.

 

[lowercase]

if you go to make.com or instructables.com you can find info on re-purposing disposable cameras which you can usually get for free from walgreens or anyplace that still does film developing.
i've never tried it for muzzle flashes but i've toyed with flash slaves which will remotely trigger flashes.
you might wanna check out detonationfilms.com for muzzle flashes or fxhome.com has a muzzle flash plugin that does all kinda lighting effects almost automatically.
good luck with this.
thanks
-k-

by the ways, one of my best friends in high school was named bobby rhoads.

 

[Doc Bernard]

Look, this kind of thing becomes a specialty. I have those I refer to for this, I do the on camera look, and then I turn things over to my VFX specialist. It is not easy tracking the muzzle and recreating the appropriate Fire rate of each weapon.

I am not angling for work here, got enough, thanks. But accuracy, if important, takes a bit of planning and consideration. What ROF does each weapon have? How many bursts? What length bursts? and how many mag changes?

What period is this? Modern, Nam, Afgani/Iraqi? Korean? Each will demand it's own aspects to "sell" the guys who were there. and if you want realism, they are they ones you want to work with.

Bro, it's your call. When you go "period" and depend on realism, you cannot overlook our vets, period. Do so at your own peril.

 

[djbobbyrhodes]

Look, this kind of thing becomes a specialty. I have those I refer to for this, I do the on camera look, and then I turn things over to my VFX specialist. It is not easy tracking the muzzle and recreating the appropriate Fire rate of each weapon.

I am not angling for work here, got enough, thanks. But accuracy, if important, takes a bit of planning and consideration. What ROF does each weapon have? How many bursts? What length bursts? and how many mag changes?

What period is this? Modern, Nam, Afgani/Iraqi? Korean? Each will demand it's own aspects to "sell" the guys who were there. and if you want realism, they are they ones you want to work with.

Bro, it's your call. When you go "period" and depend on realism, you cannot overlook our vets, period. Do so at your own peril.

It's cool that you mentioned this. We're actually working with the local VFW. They're the guys who wound up supplying us with many of our props. To clear up any confusion we're going WW2 on this one. We have several M1 garands (sp?) which will be the main weapon being fired. We also have a few other firearms as well. Some airsoft, some real.

We have the capability of using blanks. But, we'd like to avoid the inherent dangers as well as the requirement of permits and insurance. So we really want to do it with some sort of lighting or VFX (last resort).

In fact, the last thing I want is any ammunition anywhere near the set. Blanks included.

I'm definitely going to look into the ROF and the details further when I get a bit of free time.

I'm almost certain that a good bit of this will require me to flex my AE muscles. But I definitely want it to be a combination approach: practical/post.

 

[Ken Steadman]

Deja Vu
I tried to do the disposable camera muzzle flash rig before, then I switched to a small camera flash with a orange filter on it; it never looked right no matter how much time I wasted on it. In the end I went with AE/MBL the first ones are a pain but then you master it. The flash is pretty quick so it doesn't have to be as much work on background illumination to sell it.

 

[Doc Bernard]

M1 Garands are semi-auto. No ROF issues. But when they went empty, they ejected the "clip" with a "clang". Very important.

 

[djbobbyrhodes]

Ken, what exactly was the problem you ran into when using the camera flash? Just that it didn't look like muzzle flash, or it was throwing too much light? or what?

Been thinking about this. I figure a camera flash or high powered led to get the lighting from each trigger pull. And AE for the look of the actual muzzle fire.

Hmm. If the camera flash is too much, maybe just the led for reference? So that way I know exactly when each actor is pulling the trigger?

I dunno. Might have to try both ways. We shall see what I come up with.

Doc, if it's not priveledged information, what method do you use to achieve the on screen look?

 

[Postmaster]

Here is a scene of Saving Private Ryan. As far as I can see the guy is firing an M1 (correct me Doc if I´m wrong). As you can see there is not THAT much of "illumination" going on.

As far as I know they used blanks on the set, but this particular one might be also done in post - who knows.

Frank

 

[Doc Bernard]

Here is a scene of Saving Private Ryan. As far as I can see the guy is firing an M1 (correct me Doc if I´m wrong). As you can see there is not THAT much of "illumination" going on.

As far as I know they used blanks on the set, but this particular one might be also done in post - who knows.

Frank

One on the far left: M1A1/1928A1 Thompson Sub-Machinegun
Middle: M1 Garand
Right: M1918 BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle) The give-away was the heavy upper barrel and heavy lower spring housing with wide separation, and it's got a mag in it.

The flash is about right for both the Garand and the BAR, as they both use .30-06 ammo.

 

[Doc Bernard]

Doc, if it's not priveledged information, what method do you use to achieve the on screen look?

LOL, I just do the guns and stuff. I have Shake here, but talk about a steep learning curve!

I usually pow-wow with the VFX/sound design guys about timing, ROF, flash, etc. once it is in post.

Is that what you meant?

Or do you mean the look of authenticity?

 

[SonicStates]

M1 Garands are semi-auto. No ROF issues. But when they went empty, they ejected the "clip" with a "clang". Very important.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this 'clang' was what got a lot of GI's killed...until they started bouncing empty clips on the ground to flush out their opponents.
I too am interested in exploring options for muzzle flash. I'm thinking of a short that'll be using (if I make the thing) an SOCOM M14. It's an airsoft gun with a scope.
Not to hijack this thread but just add my voice to the request for workable muzzle flash solutions.
Thanks,
Sam

 

[Doc Bernard]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this 'clang' was what got a lot of GI's killed...until they started bouncing empty clips on the ground to flush out their opponents.
I too am interested in exploring options for muzzle flash. I'm thinking of a short that'll be using (if I make the thing) an SOCOM M14. It's an airsoft gun with a scope.
Not to hijack this thread but just add my voice to the request for workable muzzle flash solutions.
Thanks,
Sam

You are absolutely correct:

Perhaps the most famous characteristic of the M1 Garand was its forward-facing eight-round clip which automatically ejected when empty with a loud metallic clang, like the ringing of a bell. This was a source of both alarm and humor to American troops, since it allowed the Germans and Japanese to know when a GI was out of ammo and capitalize on it. But the ever-resourceful American troops quickly turned this into an advantage by using the "clang" as a trap to lure their opponents into the open. There were tests designed to fix this problem, but the M1 remained unchanged, since by that time, the focus had shifted to development of the FULLY automatic rifles gradually overtaking the semi-automatic M1 as standard issue firearms.

I have heard it called the "I'm Empty, Come Kill Me" Alarm, The M1 Bell, the "M1 Oh-Sh** Event", the list goes on.

SOCOM M14. It's an airsoft gun with a scope.

LOL, I take it that was for the benefit of the others?

 

[djbobbyrhodes]

Ha. Doc, I thought you meant that you might have some sort of super cool way to achieve the on screen look (of the muzzle flash).

Good tip on researching ROF. I was just doing some VFX with some footage of some of our Nazi's 'firing' an MP40. I'm currently trying to add in the muzzle flash, smoke, shell casings, etc all in post. This is going to be interesting.

According to wikipedia:
MP40
550 rounds/min
=9.17 rounds/sec
=.382 rounds/frame (@24fps)
=1 round every 2-4 frames (Closer to 1 every 3 frames, but ocassionally every other frame is what I'm guessing). But I'm also doubting that someone could sustain that kind of rate of fire without losing control of the gun.

Damn. 36 rounds per magazine
A magazine can be spent in ~4 seconds :kali:

I'm stalling here on DVX user because I'm feeling that the all AE look is going to be hokey.

 

[clang]

Blanks seem the best practical option, otherwise I'd just composite the flashes in post, it's not too difficult presuming the rifles are held fairly steadily. I doubt that anyone but gun nuts (sorry, firearms enthusiasts) will be able to tell the difference between real and fake muzzle flash.

Remember the movie Aliens? They just used single frames of white for muzzle flashes. Realistic? Maybe not, but I don't remember anyone complaining about how it looked.

 

[SonicStates]

You are absolutely correct:



I have heard it called the "I'm Empty, Come Kill Me" Alarm, The M1 Bell, the "M1 Oh-Sh** Event", the list goes on.


LOL, I take it that was for the benefit of the others?

:thumbsup:

BTW, love what you have on your site! I've said it once, and I'll say it again..."I think I might be in the wrong country..."

 

[Doc Bernard]

Blanks seem the best practical option, otherwise I'd just composite the flashes in post, it's not too difficult presuming the rifles are held fairly steadily. I doubt that anyone but gun nuts (sorry, firearms enthusiasts) will be able to tell the difference between real and fake muzzle flash.

Remember the movie Aliens? They just used single frames of white for muzzle flashes. Realistic? Maybe not, but I don't remember anyone complaining about how it looked.

Clang, if he is in the US, his options for blank firing weapons are limited, unless he has lots of $$$ for his shoot. And never, never, never, never, never (get the idea?) use real weapons on set!

In California, if I want to use most blanks guns (not including plug fires) I have to have:
1. Pyro license
2. EFP from DOJ (Which is essentially a Class III with restrictions, but the same headaches)

There are a few armorers here in So Cal with those certs, but they are VERY expensive because they know you have to go to them.


Thank you SonicStates. As much fun as it looks (and yeah, sometimes is) it's a lot of work and constant study. Everything gun related, military/Law enforcment tactics, etc., I am constantly reading and making contacts with people to learn more. Next month, I get to go play with some real big guns. Hopefully I get to pull a couple triggers.

 

[djbobbyrhodes]

Okay, I'm about 2 1/2 to 3hrs into compositing a 12 second shot. And I'm starting to be happy with my results. I imagine future endeavors will be a bit quicker. I hope. Maybe I'll throw up some footage a little later so we can see what I'm talking about.

My main concern with doing it practically in the fact that we'll be in the woods for our main battle sequence. Lots of trees and grass and whatnot. Which translates into lots and lots of various surfaces to mask out and create the lighting effect for 1-2 frames of footage. It seems like a lot of work. Especially when you figure, multiple guns going off at various intervals throughout each shot.

If I can somehow get a cheap and relatively efficient way to throw the light onto all the various surfaces in camera, then I can touch it up in post making my life much easier.

Here's my current thought:
http://unconventional-airsoft.com/2008/06/12/simple-muzzle-flash-mod-for-aegs/

Basically it's a high-powered LED hooked up to the motor in an airsoft gun. A little modification could possibly make it work with our guns we're using (not airsoft). If it looks not so great on camera at least I'll be able to tell when/where each trigger is being pulled. Right?

Or am I just way overthinking this one? :shocked:

Definitely no blanks allowed. Like I said before, we could. We absolutely could. We have the blank firing rifles. We have a huge forest on private property to film. No one would say boo. But I don't want to deal with it. It's bad news. No one on the crew and none of the actors have been properly trained or educated. It's still dangerous and who knows what could happen. Probably nothing, but it's not a risk I'm willing to take.

 

[Doc Bernard]

Definitely no blanks allowed. Like I said before, we could. We absolutely could. We have the blank firing rifles. We have a huge forest on private property to film. No one would say boo. But I don't want to deal with it. It's bad news. No one on the crew and none of the actors have been properly trained or educated. It's still dangerous and who knows what could happen. Probably nothing, but it's not a risk I'm willing to take.

DJ, I don't know you, but now you have earned my respect. Thank you.

I am going to look at that link you shared. I never saw that before. Would make tracking easier.

Keep in mind, gun flashes, unless at night, do not "light everything up". Maybe if the muzzle was up next to a tree trunk, it would get a lit effect, but your actor's faces would not show anything.

Disregard if this is a "night shot". Then, your work just quadrupled.

 

[Doc Bernard]

I do see a problem with that set-up, the resistor is a set value. Not good, as different AEGs use different voltage batteries, along with LED's having different voltage drops.

Use this formula:

You will find both the current drop and voltage rating on the LED package, and the source voltage will be the V rating of the battery. Once you determine what you need mathematically, chose the closest higher resistor, rather than closest lower resistor.

The connectors in the pics are "Deans" connectors.

 

[djbobbyrhodes]

*****

Disregard if this is a "night shot". Then, your work just quadrupled.

It's either a night shoot or a "night" shoot. That's why I'm kinda freaking out a bit. So yeah... It's gonna suck. We'll see how it goes.

---
Oh thanks for the tip. But we're not using AEG's. We've got the prop/blank firing rifles and a couple of spring powered airsofts. I'm just thinking that something like this could work. Some how rig up a battery with a LED and a switch somehow connected to the trigger.

Maybe I'll hit up the toy store. I seem to remember being little and having all sorts of light up toy guns. If I'm just using it to track trigger pulls, then that's all we need.