Potential client wants line-by-line breakdown of my quote

QuickHitRecord

QuickHitRecord

Veteran
In my short time as a freelancer, I haven't been asked for this before. We're not talking about big-budget project here (<$5K). How much detail would you provide? And would you break out overhead costs for other crew members you are hiring? Or just roll them into their daily rates?

For the record, I'm not trying to be uncooperative. I just don't want to overwhelm the client with more information than they need, or be put in the position of having to justify every single expenditure.
 
When someone wants to see a detailed budget breakdown, that is rarely a good sign; I consider it a yellow flag. Either the client doesn't know how this business works, or they're planning to grind you down and penny-pinch. I mean, go ahead, give em general categories, but expect that they will shop it against other quotes, or try to substitute your equipment rental fee for their friend's DSLR etc.

So your options are to micromanage the budget and overwhelm the client with detail or to give general categories (editing, 2 days @ $150/hr etc). If they are honestly just trying to understand where their money is going, that should be sufficient. If they are instead expecting to grind down every category, well, in my opinion that's the type of client you're better off without. But hey, if you're new in the business and haven't had a lot of clients yet and can't afford to turn away business, this will at the very least be a learning experience and at the best you might build a relationship with a novice client. Good luck and go with your gut.
 
I usually include general information by default. 'Editing' is a line item, so is 'Camera Op x 2' and 'Gear Fee', with no specifics. It might be something nefarious, but more likely they just are new to the business, and don't know how to tell if you're a good deal or not. This is a tool that helps them do that. When I used to write proposals for construction work we always included detailed budgets, even though the people we talked to had likely never built houses before. In most industries it's an expected thing, so it makes sense they would expect it here. Maybe they just want to compare you to other offers, and if everyone else refuses to answer you get the job by default. The worst case scenario is that you don't get it, and it isn't that much work to write these out.
 
I would not give a true line item breakdown. That would mean that you give each item or service a price, but then the client could turn around and say that they wish to eliminate specific line items to save on costs. This can become a nightmare, because as a freelancer it's not like you can turn around and rent out those products to someone else while you're working this shoot. The various overhead items are really where you make your money, because these are likely long ago paid for and you're really just throwing them in.

What I prefer to do when asked for something like this is to provide a Scope of Work budget. This breaks down a whole bunch of stuff in both goods and services provided, but I do not list individual pricing. Instead I say that the overall budget provides for this detailed list, and then give a big pile of info without being overly detailed or obnoxious about it. But I do show that I am providing a bunch of gear, transporting it to and from the shoot, providing X people for X amount of time, delivering a script beforehand, delivering a rough cut within X time, then a fine cut within X time, etc.

The point isn't to overwhelm the client, just explain what he or she is actually getting for the money. This is often highly appreciated and can lead to further conversations such as deliverables, additional editing, effects, voice over, music, etc. In the end when I provide a Scope of Work budget I generally find that I end up getting paid more to do more work and there's no confusion as to who is paying for what or what work was agreed to.

If a client wants to reduce costs by eliminating certain line items, then I can discuss what I can do and where it will save money, but I don't list prices by item as I want to control the conversation.
 
Barry & Mitch have absolutely NAILED this for you here.

Read their posts at least twice each.

I completely agree with them that is is almost surely a sign of bad things to come.

When I was running a recording studio for over a decade as a record producer - I got so tired of this game that I finally just flat-out declared: "I am $75 an hour...the studio is FREE." ...and I meant it.
Now, of course that's a slightly different business, and it's a pretty extreme way of dealing with it - but people DID understand it once they understood that the specific requirements of the work are going to depend heavily on specifically what THEY were wanting to achieve.


LINE ITEMS:

1. Pre-Production mapping out of what it is that is to be done HOURS.
2. Doing the work associated with gathering the images HOURS.
3. Post-Production/Editing HOURS.

Everything falls into one of those and the specifics thereof are based on the Client's desired outcome, but are not "separate-able" from their category and are therefor not a negotiable item.
 
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When a client asks that of me, I explain to them the difference between the 2 ways of bidding:
FIRM BID: I tell them how much it will cost - and unless the specs change - that is the cost - period. If i come in under, I put a bit more in my pocket. If I go over, then I cover the overage (as long as the specs haven't changed). There is no actualizing at the end. I take all of the risk.
COST PLUS FIXED FEE: They can go over the bid line by line and I will actualize the job for them at the end. But I tell them that puts all of the risk on them. If we come in under, I refund the savings and they spend a bit less. If we go over, they pay for the overages (+ my markup).

When they say things like, "I have another company that will do color grading for less, or rent a camera for less," I answer that there as many different ways of running a production as there are Producers and Directors. Some prefer small crews and run-and-gun; others work with a larger crew. No client can dictate how a filmmaker works, who his crew will be or what equipment he will use (not to be confused with requiring a certain camera, etc. to be used in the specs - but even then, I get to pick the rental house...the people I trust). If the client gets into mixing-and-matching with their little shopping cart as they roll their cart down the production shopping aisle, then they become the Producer. I tell them that's fine also, and I hope that, if that's the case, they will hire me as their director, and/or cameraman, and/or editor. My last words are: "Don't forget the Production Insurance...it's not covered by your corporate insurance." That usually seals the deal.
 
We don't quote itemized lists for the reasons already given. It gives your potential customer too many levers to pull and too many ways to jerk you around.

There is no rationale to need an itemized price list other than to pick it apart. As already said, a statement of work itemizing what you will do (without itemized prices) should suffice. In fact, you might consider it necessary to be sure they understand what the deliverables are so there is no misunderstanding if there is a need to add additional fees.
 
While I understand the tips above, I'm not sure I agree 100%. It can very well be a market thing though. Also, I do productions on the side, so my livelihood doesn't depend on it…

First of all, I'd make sure that the reason you just give a "lump sum" isn't because you yourself don't have a clue why you charge what you do. Upon request, you should definitely be able to break the costs down—at least for yourself. I'm assuming you can.

I do pretty detailed breakdowns... I think... But for instance, one item is 'LensKit corporate' and that includes my lenses covering 16mm to 200mm. Its good Canon L glass, but not crazy expensive cinema glass. The client can't pick and choose here—I have this kit at my disposal and I will choose what I feel is best for each scene. So, on each shoot, they all get rented out on a day rate basis.

At the end of the day, YOU are the product. Your vision and knowledge. Most importantly, having your prices in a bookkeeping software, makes it sooo much easier for YOU to provide new estimates, or make adjustments to existing ones.
 
Great advice, everyone. I really appreciate you taking the time to reply (Barry & Mitch are national treasures as far as I'm concerned). My initial quote was based on an SOW, which is how I've been operating thus far, and what I'd come to expect from freelancers when I would hire them at my last (company) job. Back then, I never felt the need to ask for this this kind of a breakdown so it definitely registered as a yellow flag. Now, I'm not sure whether they were gearing up to nickle-and-dime me to death, but it didn't feel right putting all of my cards on the table (like Paul said, "too many levers to pull).

Who knows, maybe they need to see line items to make them feel like it's an official business document. I can give them that, but as you've all so helpfully recommended, I'll keep it high-level.

Thanks again!
 
I guess I really don't have the same qualms about it that many of you do? But I also do much simpler projects. . .I don't "direct" or "produce", don't write scripts or develop projects or anything. . .I am little more than a shooter/editor, and avoid post when I can, so my quotes are generally for personnel and gear. I won't get more specific than "camera package = $$$," "audio gear = $$$", etc. I will actually change those prices based on what's provided (how many mics, what cam/lenses), and if they want to say "does this have to cost this much?" I will simply come back with "I can only bring x if you want to spend $xx,". I mean, it's the prerogative, I guess. Reason I mentioned the lump sum thing at the beginning of this thread is that someone advised me long ago (or hell, maybe it was on here or another board) clients don't like being hit with all this info. . .they just want to know "this guy quoted us $2575" and that's it.

One place it gets weird/uncomfortable is when I hire other people in the same position that charge more than I do (other cam ops for instance). . .that can be weird if I have to itemize us separately.
 
AndreeOnline said:
First of all, I'd make sure that the reason you just give a "lump sum" isn't because you yourself don't have a clue why you charge what you do. Upon request, you should definitely be able to break the costs down—at least for yourself. I'm assuming you can.
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It may be an antiquated way of doing things, but I do my quotes in InDesign and always keep a table with the detailed cost breakdown outside of the print area so that I always know what I am looking at. On this particular project, I'm acting more as a producer/editor but when I quote for a shoot, my flat rate basically means that I will pull what I deem to be the most appropriate gear from my (mostly middle-of-the-road) arsenal and bring it along -- just like you are saying. And then specialty gear would of course be rented. I don't think I would ever want to work with a client who asked me for a complete inventory and wanted to make their own selections.
 
write down the client's name. then draw an arrow pointing to your name. above the arrow, write down the amount it will cost.
 
Give the client what they want. Google video production budget forms. Download and fill in the one that suits. Helps you quote realistically as well. If it isn't on the form, don't forget to add a 20% contingency item. If you don't need contingency items, you can give the client a discount and everyone's happy.
 
Equipment packages are pretty straight forward. Whether you rent it from someone else or provide your own, the package is the package. Consumables and deliverables are more of a gray area. What kind of media are you delivering and who pays for that? Video tape used to be pretty straight forward, but delivery of reusable camera media, some of which can be quite expensive, can be a gray area depending on whether it is returned or not. I imagine most people deliver files by download links these days. How do you cover consumables like gaffer tape, gels, black foil, foamcore etc? One gaffer package I used to rent didn't charge for partial rolls or used sheets of consumables, but if they pulled a new roll or sheet of something off the truck, that was billed to the production.
 
Josh Bass said:
One place it gets weird/uncomfortable is when I hire other people in the same position that charge more than I do (other cam ops for instance). . .that can be weird if I have to itemize us separately.
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Awkwwaaard.... but maybe it indicates you're charging too little for yourself?
 
I charge based on my actual time with a camera, not years in the industry. I've been at it since 2002, but my time with a camera can be measured in days per year, not the same as someone who's been at it same amount of time, but shooting 20 days a month, so I won't charge like those guys. I feel like I'll know when I'm "worth" more. . .it still ain't yet. Most guys who charge like I do ARE, however, relative newbs, so it's strange. . .I know a lot of stuff, but not nearly the stuff the better folks know, but more than the newbier folks who charge less than the long-time vets. I'm in a weird place. What can I say? It is what it is. There's some saying that if at least a third of your clients don't think you're too expensive, you're too cheap. . .well I definitely get a much higher percentage than that abandoning our conversations after they get a quote from me, so I'm not too cheap.
 
Personally I like to present line by line..

Preprod meetings, 1/2 day $rrr
DOP 2 days at - $xxx = $yyy
Camera Package, 2 days at $www = $vvv
Camera runner, 2 days at $fff = $ggg
Edit 4 days at $rrr = $sss
Hard drive, $150


Maybe even more broken..
Edit Day 1, transcode, log audio, clip top tail
Edit day 2, rough edit
Edit day3 edit to client view
Edit day 4 changes as per client comments

There are pros and cons to this system..

The client knows what they are getting
in the example above you are limiting what you will do for the fee. So if the client is coming back with loads of changes.. or contradictions to previous instructions you can then charge for edit day 5.
I also don't let the client in on profit items for example the camera runner may cost me $kkk but I bill him/her at $fff

I present an 'Estimate' not a 'Quote' the difference between the two is that with an 'Estimate' you are in a position to bill for edit day 5.

In the edit I am brutally honest in keeping track on a spreadsheet of my hours and activities in the edit, I also share this with the client.

The big 'con' to the 'line' system is the complexity of billing for 20 years of experience developing ones artistic vision and practical skillset.
One can eiter present this as a high DOP fee. .. or add a line item which is basically a 'creative fee'

Now that creative fee is liable to be knocked down and that can be a problem.

S
 
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