Possible good Audio Setup?

ian lucero

ian lucero

Well-known member
Hey all. Ok I 'think' I've narrowed my choices down. I've posted the below message over at the Studio-Central forums to get feedback about this and want to post it here as well to get different thoughts on it.

Again thank you for all the information, dvx community.

Here goes -

I have a desktop and laptop. For now I can afford a "basic" audio set-up that I will be able to use with both. I'm thinking it will consist of this:

- (M-Audio Firewire 410 or Edirol FA-101 or 66) To get audio in and out of both computers

- (Active Event or Alesis studio monitors)

Question at this point:

Will I still need an internal soundcard to complete the path to/from the M-Audio/Edirol in order to get sound out of the speakers or can I connect the Active speakers straight into the the Outputs on the back of M-Audio/Edirol?

The reason I ask this question is that I don't yet know how the computer will talk to the external firewire module. Will the the M-audio/Edirol act like portable soundcard? - Which is the reason I'd like this set-up to work, in order to be able to use it with my laptop too. Is this possible?

What the laptop set-up will be used for:

- Recording sound out in the field. (Like a dedicated recording device but has more uses - I can't afford a Harddisk recorder or DAT)

- Doing rough mixes, on the go.


What the desktop set-up will be used for:

- My main editing/production station. Most-likely take what I captured out in the field and import it into this machine for finalizing, rendering, etc.

- Also will be used for creating simple audio via samples, etc. from Vinyl, and other sound sources.


I guees I should mention I have the assortment of microphones to connect to this: shotguns, stereo, boundary, lavs... my concern here is being able to get the signal into the computer and hear it at the highest quality I can afford.

Thanks for any information and feedback.
 
Re: Possible good Audio Setup?

You won't need anything else with Firewire 410 (or similar mobile interface). You can route your ouput to any of the interface outputs and connect your powered monitors to the interface output.
 
Re: Possible good Audio Setup?

Thanks for the reply Barry. This is what I'll probably go with as my audio solution for now. I could always throw a mixer into that setup if I needed to too. ok now to decide which interface and monitors to get.
 
Re: Possible good Audio Setup?

I'm assuming you are on a PC.  If so you're fine.  If, however, you are running a Mac, I would steer you away from the M-Audio FW410 (I have one in a closet here somewhere).  It's a nice unit and it works great on a PC but their Mac drivers are awful.

What Audio App are you running?

Matt
 
Re: Possible good Audio Setup?

[quote author=MattC link=board=audio;num=1107973240;start=0#3 date=02/09/05 at 15:10:11]I'm assuming you are on a PC.  If so you're fine.  If, however, you are running a Mac, I would steer you away from the M-Audio FW410 (I have one in a closet here somewhere).  It's a nice unit and it works great on a PC but their Mac drivers are awful.

What Audio App are you running?

Matt[/quote]

Was about to post what you just mentioned as I've been reading more and more bad reviews from Mac users. I'm a mac user so I'm going to have to try something else. Unless M-Audio writes solid drivers for the 410.

Ok so how about Edirols FA-101 or 66? How are their drivers for the Mac? What I was looking forward to on the 410 besides the obvious was that it had S/PDIF Coax and Optical. I wouldn't have to get a separate convertor. If I get the 101 or 66 I'll have to get a convertor since it only has Optical.

Does anyone have other suggestions for this kind of setup? Other makers that are equal to the M-Audio or Edirol that actually work on a Mac but is still in the same price range.
 
Re: Possible good Audio Setup?

The Edirol stuff works great.

Regarding using a laptop as a field recorder...

DON'T DO IT.


Laptops (yes, even macs, and I'm a mac lover) are completely unreliable in the field for recording purposes. I highly, highly, highly recommend you get a field recorder for field recording. Get something like the Edirol R4, or R1, or a Marantz PMD670. Laptops aren't made for field recording. They don't hold up well over time, they lock up, and they do a million other things that you don't need them to be doing while you are recording.

Yes, I am speaking from personal experience. DON'T DO IT. If you can't afford to buy a machine, then rent one. If you can't afford to rent one, then don't be doing field recording until you can.

-Dave
 
Re: Possible good Audio Setup?

Dave,

I have a question for you regarding this.  Both you and Oleg feel this way and I respect both of your opinions a great deal so I want to clarify your opinion.  I've done quite a bit of multitrack recording to computer, both PC and Mac and have had one or two problems in about four years.  Granted this was in a controlled environment with a computer that was set up for, and dedicated to, audio work.  Is it that you think the laptop would be less reliable or is it "field conditions" that have you worried.  If it's the latter, doesn't that also depend on what those conditions are?  For example, my little B&W short that I did was filmed entirely in my apartment.  I would feel comfortable recording that straight to disk and believe I could do so without a problem.  I've recorded many musical performances this way, albeit with a desktop machine that had been shlepped to the location.  I would agree entirely if I were to shoot a scene walking down the street of Manhattan however.  I'm just trying to understand exactly why you dislike this idea.  For the record, I agree, a dedicated recorder would be best, but for a young person without the dough or as a stop-gap measure until a dedicated recorder could be purchased I would think that this *would* work, even if it were not optimal.  Personally I would record to camera and have a good DAW set up for post before buying a dedicated field recorder, but then I would buy a dedicated field recorder next.  

Ian,

Edirol is ok, but I'm not a huge fan.  I'm really a big believer in two companies for audio interfaces, those made by MOTU (Mark of the Unicorn) and RME.  Both offer very good latency on Macs (driver related), have excellent A/D/D/A converters for their price range and have very acceptable pre-amps.   The RME line is probably out of your price range, but I would check out the RME Hammerfall (www.rme-audio.com).  MOTU also makes exceptional audio interfaces and they are a bit more reasonably priced (I think this is still true at least).  Check out their Traveler model (www.motu.com).  I hope this has helped. Oh, and you still haven't told us what Audio App you intend to use (Logic, Nuendo, SX, DP).

Best to all,

Matt
 
Re: Possible good Audio Setup?

Thank you Matt and Dave for you responses. Both of you give valid points about what I'm trying to accomplish.

Dave - while I would love to get a dedicated recorder instead of using my laptop I really need to think about what my needs are right now. The dedicated recorder would be out of my range as I would need to get a new laptop at this time because my current one is going to die any second (Dave you probably read my posts about needing to get a new laptop.) but I still need to be able to capture good audio while I'm out shooting (ie. weddings, theater, live events - not necessarily short films) and not be tethered to that gear with a cable running to my camera, like while shooting a wedding. YES I do lots of wedding gigs, that's how I can survive right now. And NO I don't want to have to hire a 3rd person to run audio at those kind of gigs. I think it is enough of a distraction that there are 2 sneaky geeks running around with $10,000 worth of gear. Now if this was a short film I was doing, then of course I would hire someone that really knew their **** about audio to record it. Sorry I should have mentioned my complete needs in the beginning. I would love to get the knowledge about audio and learn it before attempting it - but at the same time I have a budget, gear that is about to explode(laptop) and work to be done. I need to get good quality stuff captured the best way I can afford. I'm tired of depending on a Minidisc or only having the 2 line-ins on the dvx.

Matt - those 2 companies are great. I've used a MOTU borrowed from a friend before and that thing just rocked. So dependable and sounded amazing. (connected to a 15" Powerbook running Logic to capture) It actually saved my ass because at a wedding the rabbi had grabbed the stereo mic and tried to use it and didn't realize it wasn't hooked up to the their sound system and when he put it back on the mic stand it was facing the wrong way and barely captured what it needed to capture and because he refused to wear the wireless Lav, that stereo mic and the grooms lav was all that caught the whole ceremony. The quality of the MOTU was so good I was able boost those levels in post, clean it up a bit and still have usable audio. So yeah I would love to get that traveller rig but right now, I am going to have to get something less expensive. I could still borrow my friends motu in the future, just not all the time.

(Un?)fortunately, your final suggestion about recording to camera and building my DAW first then getting a portable recorder next might have to be the way to go - as I am finding I am running out of time in the research part and projects and deadlines are coming. I will need to consider other purchases as well - microphones, speakers, a new laptop, and audio software! Yes to answer your question about what app I will use for working on this stuff - for right now I have Final Cut HD and Soundtrack as my only software for editing video and/or audio. I have other programs like Peak, Sound Studio, and some other cheap or free apps that don't really do multi-track. For now what I need to do I can accomplish within FCP or use Soundtrack. I guess I was going to depend on the firewire devices (Edirol 101/66, whatever) to help me capture that audio - but then realized the software that comes with that is only a mixer type of app and that I would still need audio software to record. So I was hoping Sound Studio or even FCP could help me with the capturing part. But better Audio software would probably help.

So you can maybe see what the dilema is better. I'm getting twisted and fried shopping for this stuff. bleh. :P But it needs to happen soon.

Thanks again for all the help. Any more suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
 
Re: Possible good Audio Setup?

Ian,

Based on what you're doing, I have to say, recording to a laptop would be a drag, it would actually be much better suited to a short narrative. I would work on going directly into your camera and optimizing your audio chain to there. A good audio app is going to cost you as much as a decent dedicated recorder - something to think about. But you know what, if you're giging you need to first buy the equipment that you can earn bread with. If you have a buddy who has a daw you can borrow for a while, maybe a good dedicated recorder should be your first purchase (assuming you already have a good mic(s) set up - otherwise that would be first). As long as you can make clients happy and earn, you can always buy more later.

Matt
 
Re: Possible good Audio Setup?

If you're doing mostly weddings, maybe you should buy one or two minidisc (MD) recorders. A lot of wedding shooters use them to capture audio. They're inexpensive and the sound quality should be fine for what you're doing. Using a laptop at a wedding for audio seems really inconvenient, so I wouldn't confuse your computer needs with your audio requirements.
 
Re: Possible good Audio Setup?

To clarify:

Any laptop (Mac or PC) is completely unreliable for this. They are usually low on RAM (and expensive to up the RAM). They are doing to many other things at one time...like checking for software upgrades..that sort of thing, taking away from the processing power of your machine. They don't hold up well outside. No matter how rugged they are, they aren't rugged enough. They don't like dust, dirt, water, high humidity, and extreme cold. They will not work at all over the shoulder. They take a long time to boot up compared to a dedicated machine. THEY CRASH.

Here's another way to look at it...if it were a good idea to record right to a laptop for production sound, people would already be doing it.

If you are buying a laptop for this, put that money towards a dedicated recorder, like the Marantz PMD670.

-Dave
 
Re: Possible good Audio Setup?

So let me ask you a question, Dave. I assume you would never use DVRack for the same reasons then, correct?

[quote author=Dave_Fisk link=board=audio;num=1107973240;start=0#10 date=02/10/05 at 13:00:17]Any laptop (Mac or PC) is completely unreliable for this. They are usually low on RAM (and expensive to up the RAM). They are doing to many other things at one time...like checking for software upgrades..that sort of thing, taking away from the processing power of your machine.[/quote]


This simply isn't true - or at least it doesn't have to be. Check any of the audio boards about setting up PCs (or better yet Macs!) as dedicated digital audio workstations. Or if you would like, I'll send you some stuff. There is no reason that a properly configured computer, including a laptop, can not operate perfectly well as a multitrack recorder. Now this does NOT mean that you can go down to Walmart, pick up a bargain basement laptop and go to town, but you can set one up so that it is very stable and operates very well for this purpose.

[quote author=Dave_Fisk link=board=audio;num=1107973240;start=0#10 date=02/10/05 at 13:00:17]They don't hold up well outside. No matter how rugged they are, they aren't rugged enough. They don't like dust, dirt, water, high humidity, and extreme cold. They will not work at all over the shoulder. They take a long time to boot up compared to a dedicated machine.[/quote]

Yes, you're right, and again I addressed this in my first post. I keep hearing you and Oleg bring this argument up (and every-time you do, I agree with you). But not everyone is filming under these conditions, most of the small films I see posted here certainly are not. I see no reason why someone filming a short in controlled environments could not use such a set-up, at least until they could afford a better one - and that is all I've been saying, whether in this thread or the one regarding a portastudio. To say that either simply wont work under any circumstances is wrong.[/quote]

[quote author=Dave_Fisk link=board=audio;num=1107973240;start=0#10 date=02/10/05 at 13:00:17]THEY CRASH.[/quote]

A properly configured, dedicated system (or even not so dedicated) will be very stable. Is it possible a crash *could* occur?

[quote author=Dave_Fisk link=board=audio;num=1107973240;start=0#10 date=02/10/05 at 13:00:17]Here's another way to look at it...if it were a good idea to record right to a laptop for production sound, people would already be doing it.[/quote]

Many in the music industry already are...

[quote author=Dave_Fisk link=board=audio;num=1107973240;start=0#10 date=02/10/05 at 13:00:17]If you are buying a laptop for this, put that money towards a dedicated recorder, like the Marantz PMD670.[/quote]

Yes, if you are buying a laptop to use as a field recorder, then you would be better off investing in a dedicated recorder. But that's not who we're talking to...

Again I would point out that most of the folks asking these types of questions here, from what I've been able to determine, are not pros. They're kids/hobbiests looking to do the best they can with the resources they have. I have no problem with you pimping high end gear, (hell I plan to buy some from you in the very near future, and have already recommended you to a Chicago outfit) but that doesn't mean that all low end solutions are worthless. Worth "less", yes - but not worthless.

Best,

Matt
 
Re: Possible good Audio Setup?

I can only speak from personal experience.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the only really good software made for recording production sound on a laptop is Metacorder. It runs on mac only (which isn't a bad thing), and is $1600, which is more than twice as much as a PMD670, or a little more than an FR-2. People have tried Pro Tools, Nuendo, Logic, DP, and many other DAW's for production sound, and they just don't work.

AND...computers are really damn loud. Let's say you are shooting a scene indoors where conditions really aren't an issue. If your laptop is in the same room as the mic, you're going to pick up the computer. I've had to deal with this time and time again. Dedicated audio recorders for production sound don't do this.

-Dave
 
Re: Possible good Audio Setup?

Ok, I'm just speaking from my stand point right now with my budget and the other types of work that I am doing.. Yes at this point you can say I am a Hobbyist as I am not full-on doing the video/audio thing as a full-time job. I would like to but right now I am still young and learning, 29 this coming Feb 20th!! :o But I also do other types of work that I need to consider in my purchases which is why the laptop came up as one of the main components to this setup. If I didn't also do web/graphic design, travel every other month or have opportunities to do live VJ work - then sure I'll plop down the $$ for dedicated equipment to do audio.

But here, with all your comments, it is helping me to consider where and when I need start focusing my priorities as a videographer. Videography is what I love to do, and production work in general. But it is video production that has got me spending the big $$ such as my recent purchase of the DVX. Before that I've owned a VX2000, TRV900, GL1 - didn't so much pay serious attention to better gear for capturing audio but always knew it was important and that it needed to be done with something other than the built-in stereo microphone. Also I'm always just 'that' close to getting better equipment for my video/audio needs, but then there is something else that needs to be purchased for something else in my life, on and on and on and on... :-/

So on to the discussion about laptops working as a DAW or multitrack recorder. As I mentioned in my previous post, I used a 15" G4 PB and the MOTU (correction: it was acutally a Metric Halo 2882 Mi/o) running Logic Pro as my recorder for 2 wireless lavs and a boundary mic, had a minidisc hooked up too just in case. This set-up worked just fine - the MIO could crash but Logic would keep running and still record - in fact because I had redundancy with the MD (although not the same quality) it still would record. Dave - you mention a laptop being unreliable because it is 'constantly checking for updates' well yeah, of course. But if I was working a wedding, out on some shoot, why would I have my mail app opened or why would I be hooked to the internet? When I'm doing anykind of sensitive data or processor hungry work I never have extraneous things running. I go as far as to not have my main work station connected to any kind of phoneline or cable modem as I don't want to risk any viruses or even better - risk any DISTRACTIONS while I work. :) "Laptops aren't rugged or work over the shoulder?" What are you doing? Riding a horse? No, laptops don't work well at all for any kind of moving or run-n-gun work. Never would I use it in this kind of situation. Out in the desert? Capturing a bunch of fake hippies at burning man? Car chase scenes? no way. hahha. That's where the harddisk recorder comes in. I know what you are saying though. Of course it would be absurd to use a laptop in rough, uncontrolled situations. But a wedding, a live theater performace and even a rock concert can be tracked and miked using a stationary laptop hooked up to the right microphone gear with the right people using them or the right gear holding them. But all in all I think laptops can be used in many situations to record either live video or audio, they are rugged and quiet enough.

Although I don't know about making a laptop out Aluminum (apple!) I know many a user with little dimples and dents in them. Last I checked, aluminum is soft and comes on tear-able sheets in boxes or can be crushed and recycled - what is apple trying to say here?. This is coming from a lifelong Mac user. The iBooks are tougher than those AlBooks.

Well my (re)search continues as to what will best fit my needs. This thread is more informative than you guys know it. I know you know it. It's getting late. DVXuser.com is beyond educational.
 
Re: Possible good Audio Setup?

I'll I can do is speak from personal experience. I've never had good luck with taking laptops in the field for field recording. Many of the situations you jokingly mention are the types of recording situations I find myself in sometimes....well..except for the burning man thing. Although, that is an interesting idea.

If you want to use a laptop, go for it. Just don't be suprised when you have issues. If you don't have any issues, then you've lucked out.

-Dave
 
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