Poor Man's Fujinon 19-90mm T2.9? Photo-lens alternatives

C

Chris Lawes

Active member
Hey everyone,

The Story:
So reading about the Fujinon ZK4.7x19 19-90mm T2.9 Cabrio lens being used on Anthony Bordain's Parts Unknown and looking so perfect for the Run N' Gun shooters using large sensor cameras like RED, I thought to myself "I've finally found the lens I need for do-it-all documentary shooting!"I proceeded to call up Abelcine to order 2 or 3 of them and then found out the price, $38,000 each. Well unfortunately I had just spent about $200K on a new 2013 Lamborghini Gallardo (couldn't resist) and the wife won't let me splurge again for a couple months atleast... so I figured I should look for some cheaper alternatives

Seriously though, that Fujinon 19-90 is perfect for docu shooting and leave-it-on-all-day shooting, lightweight (4.85 lb , fast, wide-to-portrait, excellent IQ, it shows that it CAN be done.) $38k is a fair price, but in the meantime what is out there as a poor man's alternative? (Poor man meaning... under $10k?)

The Goal:
Zoom lens, roughly 19-90, roughly f/4 or below, super35mm coverage atleast, resolves 4k rez, Price under $10k. Ideally under 6lbs and cine focus direction!

Here are some options:

- Sony E PZ 18-105mm f/4 G OSS Lens $600: LINK This is pretty much perfect, just what I'm looking for. Only two problems are the lack of a manual iris ring and Sony cameras only! :(

- Sigma 17-70mm F2.8-4 DC Macro(OS) (1.02 LB) $500LINK : My favorite option so far. Pretty fast, light, stabilization, good IQ, and combined with a Novoflex EOS/NIK adapter you get a manual iris ring. Cons are overall quality and lens extending when zoomed. Especially interesting if it could be cinemodded like the Sigma 18-35 f/1.8?

- Canon EF-S 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM Lens $700 LINK : A decent option for run-n-gun cover everything. Not very fast, but you can crank up ISO when you have to... I'm more bothered by lack of any manual iris ring option.

- Canon EF-S 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS $500 : I don't understand the point of this lens, why is the 18-85 so slow and expensive when this one exists in addition to it??

- Nikon 28-300mm + Speedbooster: (1.76 lb) $960 w/ speedbooster, manual iris (becomes 19.9-213mm f/2.5-4! ). Wrong focus/zoom direction, will it cover Scarlet sensor without vignetting?

- Abelcine or MTF Services B4 2/3″ to super35mm adapter with a 2/3 Cine or ENG lens: Theoretically an interesting option, but can get expensive + large, and will it really resolve a nice 4k image after a doubler+adapter+prism conversion+etc?

- Red Pro Zoom 18-85 T2.9 (9.9 lb) $9,975LINK : Great lens, checks all the boxes except weight. 10LB is a bit much for all day shoulder shooting... and the price is slightly pushing it. Definitely one of the best options out there though.

- Cooke 18-100 ~Big, heavy, soft, etc...

- Canon 24-105mm f4L lens + Speedbooster: (1.47 lb) $1,100 COMBINED WITH Metabones Speedbooster creates: A 17-72 f/2.8 lens! Perfect! Except... I've heard that the 24-105 has vignetting issues with speedbooster? And... how would you control iris? Certainly not with a manual ring :(

- Sony 18-252mm SCL-Z18X140 Variable f/3.9-f/6.8 Aperture (4.9 lb) $10k - Great option, little slow (don't know how fast you lose speed throughout range) but restricts you to Sony cameras (F3/F5/etc.)

- Sony 18-200 f/3.5-6.3 $900 LINK: Sony only, kinda slow, no manual iris. Otherwise a fairly good option.

- Gopro backup + mid zoom. Shoot with a good zoom that isn't wide enough (24-105 Canon, 28-85 Nikon, etc) and keep a gopro mounted on camera incase you get screwed while shooting and couldn't get wide enough during a shot.

- Hunger strike outside Fujinon factory until somebody gives me a 19-90 Cabrio

Update 08/19/13:
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Let me also clarify my personal thinking on this lens search. At this point, the only lens that really will do what I want perfectly (single lens, docu-style, decent speed shooting) IS the Fuji 19-90, so I am intending on renting it sometimes and buying it once I have enough money.
For sit-down interviews and b-roll, I intend on using good primes (Zeiss CP/Rokinon if cheap).
It's only for projects where I need to follow living people through unpredictable circumstances and don't have the money to rent a Cabrio that I need this mystery lens. Shooting conversations, walking tours, smash-n-grab moving b-roll, you know "Parts Unknown" style stuff. Whenever I have time to slow down and change lenses leisurely then I'll switch over the primes.
So far the best option I think is the Sigma 17-70 2.8-4.0, if shooting 4K means you can punch in a little bit in post if you need to (easier problem to solve than "make that shot wider :D") So… Sigma 17-70 with iris ring adapter for running around, budget-ish primes for shooting with controlled circumstances, and…. save the rest of lens budget towards renting/buying a Fuji 19-90 is where I'm at right now. If the Sigma OS is broken with adapters that's a real bummer, and leaves me with the Canon 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6.
 
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Ive been through this - a lot.

Im convinced the Red is too heavy - had my 400/2.8 on my shoulder for a few minutes to check.. it is too heavy

You dont mention your camera - speedbooster or not.

Any way I use a manual nikkor 28-85 paired with an nikkor 18mm prime

With the 'booster I could maybe go to just the 28-85

Now this combo fails (for you) because its nikon and focuses the 'wrong' way

There must be similar 28-80 lenses in FD or Contax or suchlike -there is the old angie/tokina

IMO a wide prime and a medium to tele zoom is better than a single badly compromised zoom, I have manual focus/ap and a lens that is really good at 18 not barrelled or distorted.

24-105 and booster is close - but I dont like canon glass as I dont get on with the focus throw

In coming to these two lenses I bought and rejected..
tokina 17-50
nikon 18-85
24-105
and others I have forgotten!

S
 
Nice comparison of lightweight cine zooms embed below. Shows why the 19-90 focal range is really useful / almost necessary for docu work (going from a group shot of three guys talking around a burrito stand to individual facial close-ups and back out constantly as a conversation is going on for instance, all while not being so in people's faces that they feel uncomfortable.)

- Nikkor 28-85 : Looks nice but not wide enough IMO (see above)

- Nikon 18-8 : Does this exist? Or are you referring to the 16-85? If so, it's a good option to add to the list what was your problem with it (it's rather slow)? (The focus direction does bother me but none of the options are perfect.)

- Canon 28-85 : Not wide enough

- Sony SCL-Z18X140 18-252mm :A very good, legitimate option. I want to use mainly Blackmagic and RED though so that's an issue, plus the speed, price, and optics are all mild issues. It's a worthy addition to the list though!

- "The RED 17-50mm T2.9 or Sigma 17-50" : Great lenses, and my backup option but it really doesn't get long enough

- "Fuji Alura 18-80 for 26k; Canon 30-105 for 20K, Zeiss Compact 28-80 for under 20K" : 18-80 is a good option, but still pricey and over 10lb. The other two are not wide enough IMO.

- Nikon 35-200mm f/4.5 :I feel like this is way more length than needed handheld documentary style, and not wide enough. If I'm getting B-roll footage of buildings/objects/etc than I can switch to primes and go wider/longer/faster, what we all need is a good standing shot to tight bust shot handheld lens for shooting people in the moving world.

There's a great article by Timur Civan about the Fuji 19-90 HERE, and in it he says:
"He heard from the horses mouth that the 18-85 "...is sharper than Master primes". Miranda only shoots on the Fujinons as of late. He DPed the Tom Cruise film, Oblivion, Shot on F65 and Fujinon Premiere Zooms. I saw this film and it looks astonishing. This is a big deal. Fujinon in only a couple of years in the PL market, has potentially bested some of the finest primes ever made... with a ZOOM!"

Then goes on to say about the 19-90 specifcally:
"What the cabrio is doing, is giving you practically everything. Optical performance, range, light weight, professional features, and a reasonable Tstop to work with..."

So I wonder if Canon/Zeiss/Angenieux/etc companies are concerned about cannibalizing sales of prime kits and short range zooms, I'm sure there's plenty of DP's out there with a couple of high-priced zooms and a whole kit of primes, if you could replace 90% of that with one do-it-all lens, and just stretch it for your needs, that might become an issue. Just a thought. I wish that Sigma/Rokinon/Tokina would try to jump in and make a 18-100 APS-C f/4 or f/2.8 lens with a manual iris ring for $4-8k.


What do you guys think about the Sigma 17-70mm F2.8-4 with an Nikon to whatever adapter that adds a manual iris ring? Good price, covers the range, "cine" focus direction, fairly fast... disadvantages include lens getting longer when zooming and maybe overall build quality/IQ.. But it seems pretty unique in the APS-C photo lens world??
 
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Man, those are some really nice lenses.

This might add nothing much to the conversation here since I don't know what it can be adapted to, but in a run and gun situation on the GH2 or NEX, I reach for an FD 35-105mm f/3.5 zoom. I find it to be a nice, sharp lens with a constant aperture. Can't beat it for < $100. :)
 
ASchear said:
in a run and gun situation on the GH2 or NEX, I reach for an FD 35-105mm f/3.5 zoom. I find it to be a nice, sharp lens with a constant aperture. Can't beat it for < $100. :)
Click to expand...

Cool lens! For me I would have trouble shooting inside any kind of restricted spaces at 35mm, but nice manual iris ring and mechanics and a great deal, nice to know about :)
 
Chris Lawes said:
Hey everyone,

The Story:
So reading about the Fujinon ZK4.7x19 19-90mm T2.9 Cabrio lens being used on Anthony Bordain's Parts Unknown and looking so perfect for the Run N' Gun shooters using large sensor cameras like RED, I thought to myself "I've finally found the lens I need for do-it-all documentary shooting!"

I proceeded to call up Abelcine to order 2 or 3 of them and then found out the price, $38,000 each. Well unfortunately I had just spent about $200K on a new 2013 Lamborghini Gallardo (couldn't resist) and the wife won't let me splurge again for a couple months atleast... so I figured I should look for some cheaper alternatives

Seriously though, that Fujinon 19-90 is perfect for docu shooting and leave-it-on-all-day shooting, lightweight (4.85 lb wi, fast, wide-to-portrait, excellent IQ, it shows that it CAN be done. $38k is a fair price, but in the meantime what is out there as a poor man's alternative? (Poor man meaning... under $10k?)


The Goal: Zoom lens, roughly 19-90, roughly f/4 or below, super35mm coverage atleast, resolves 4k rez, Price under $10k. Ideally under 6lbs and cine focus direction!

Here are some options:

- Sigma 17-70mm F2.8-4 DC Macro (OS) (1.02 LB) $500 LINK : Pretty close really, just a question of manual iris and overall quality. Especially interesting if it could be cinemodded like the Sigma 18-35 f/1.8?

- Red Pro Zoom 18-85 T2.9 (9.9 lb) $9,975 LINK : Great lens, checks all the boxes except weight. 10LB is a bit much for all day shoulder shooting... and the price is slightly pushing it. Definitely one of the best options out there though.

- Cooke 20-100 ~11lb Pretty huge and heavy :/

- Canon 24-105mm f4L lens (1.47 lb) $1,100 COMBINED WITH Metabones Speedbooster creates: A 17-72 f/2.8 lens! Perfect! Except... I've heard that the 24-105 has vignetting issues with speedbooster? And... how would you control iris? Certainly not with a manual ring :(

- Sony 18-252mm SCL-Z18X140 Variable f/3.9-f/6.8 Aperture (4.9 lb) $10k - Great option, but restricts you to Sony cameras (F3/F5/etc.)

- Nikon 28-300mm (1.76 lb) $960 w/ speedbooster, manual iris (becomes 19.9-213mm f/2.5-4! ). Wrong focus/zoom direction, will it cover Scarlet sensor without vignetting?

- Abelcine or MTF Services B4 2/3″ to super35mm adapter with a 2/3 Cine or ENG lens: Theoretically an interesting option, but can get expensive + large, and will it really resolve a nice 4k image after a doubler+adapter+prism conversion+etc?

- Hunger strike outside Fujinon factory until somebody gives me a 19-90 Cabrio


Any ideas people????!?! ;)

Chris
Click to expand...

If even considering one of the many heavy cinema zooms, skip the 20-100 Cooke and go right for the 18-100 Cooke T/3 zoom. It's amazeballs if you want that vintage-but -not-too-vintage feel. The 18-100 is better than the 20-100 and 10:1 25-250. It however, is not a LWZ by any means and looks completely different from a modern zoom/Cabrio.

Angie has a new 19.5 to 95mm zoom. Look into it, but it might be more than a cabrio!
 
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Chris Lawes said:
- Nikkor 28-85 : Looks nice but not wide enough IMO (see above)
Click to expand...

Absolutely not wide enough. (without a speed booster) That is why I have it 'paired' with an 18mm

Let us say you are shooting a sequence.

IMO a sequence will be CUs, MCUs and Wides

One could translate that to needing CU, 85, MCU 28 and Wide 18mm

So Ideally we want a zoom lens 18-85 - does it all - we want a cabrio or alura, but cannot afford it.

Then we look at how can we get 18-85 in an affordable package.

One could get a 17-50 Tokina and add an 85 prime (meaning a lens change at the long end)
or we could get a 17-70 sigma (losing 10mm at the long end)
or we could get an 18 and a 28-85 (meaning a lens change at the wide end)

Or other options, but basically we are looking at one compromise zoom or two lenses

Now you need to think through your sequence and your shooting style, and work out which bad situation works for you least badly.

Ive done the 17-50 + 85 thing, and owned a bad 16/85 (nikkor AF) and the 18 28-85 combo.

The 18, 28-85 works for me best.

Why?

-My glass is proper manual with proper apertures and long smooth focus travel
-My 18mm is well corrected and sharp wide open
-both lenses are cheap (actually the 18 was $900 so 'medium')
-both lenses are light and small

And sit down interviews.. the 28-85 allows the perfect combo of MCU and CU without a lens change or moving the sticks

And typical sequences - say a chef - I would do one wide shot and then move from MCU to CU for the rest of the sequence - less lens changes per sequence

And the downers on the other lenses? Ill talk about the 17-50 I had..
-super short crappy focus throw
-distorted and flares at the wide end
-large and heavy
-not long enough for a sit down interview

Overall I think you should try a manual 28-85 which can be found for $200 or less yet has physical and optical performance better than any of todays electronic photo zooms

I realise that any lens changes are a compromise, which is why I also have for my FS100 the 18-200 kit lens too for use in 'emergencies'.. and an EX1 for use in 'super emergencies'

Sound stupid, but you could have a rig with a 28-85 and a gopro on top for the (emergency) wide - covering you if you miss something
 
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Lenses like the Tokina 17-50 (and I guess sigma 17-50) also 'grow' when zoomed which can clash with your matte box and ND if you have them. Again, I wont bore you too much but the 28-85 works least badly with a matte box compared to other lenses Ive tried.

And the future?

For me I hope to move to an f5, which will mean no more 18-200E, I will then consider an ENG zoom and conversion as budget allows,

Also the zeiss/arri (?) LWZ has been discontinued (?) and there is a possible zeiss solution round the corner - if its less than $15g is might be the hole we have been looking for. Id consider a lens in that price zone if I knew it would be with me for a decade..

There might be a new CZ.2 zoom lens on the way.. to match the two seen here..

http://www.zeiss.com/C12575690045D103/EmbedTitelIntern/Broschure_Compact_Prime_and_Zoom_lenses/$File/Broschure_Compact_Prime_and_Zoom_lenses.pdf



S
 
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I use a Zeiss/Sony 24-70 with an LA-EA2/ FS100/NEX 7. Though not always wide enough it has worked well and is an F2.8 lens, wider I have to swap to a Tokina 11-16. My Mattebox is a Chroziel clip on so it slides with the lens. None are ideal and I wish there was an affordable ciné lens that did cost more than my car. But there isn't is there....? Atleast thats what I am gettng from reading here.
 
Ryan Patrick O'Hara said:
If even considering one of the many heavy cinema zooms, skip the 20-100 Cooke and go right for the 18-100 Cooke T/3 zoom. It's amazeballs if you want that vintage-but -not-too-vintage feel. The 18-100 is better than the 20-100 and 10:1 25-250. It however, is not a LWZ by any means and looks completely different from a modern zoom/Cabrio.


Angie has a new 19.5 to 95mm zoom. Look into it, but it might be more than a cabrio!
Click to expand...
Yeah it weighs 12lbs and costs $60k. Glad to see more zooms being released in that range though :)




morgan_moore said:
Absolutely not wide enough. (without a speed booster) That is why I have it 'paired' with an 18mm


Let us say you are shooting a sequence….


I realise that any lens changes are a compromise, which is why I also have for my FS100 the 18-200 kit lens too for use in 'emergencies'.. and an EX1 for use in 'super emergencies'


Sound stupid, but you could have a rig with a 28-85 and a gopro on top for the (emergency) wide - covering you if you miss something
Click to expand...


Firstly, thank you for such a detailed post, your argument is well made and experience well shared, I'm sure people will find it useful :) And it's true that the wider end of a zoom compared to a prime is going to be worse distortion etc than the longer end of the zoom. However I look at it this way, if I'm shooting a commercial or a chef what you're saying makes sense. But if I'm shooting literally on the streets documentary style shooting I need to stay on one lens, and if I use a 4K camera (BMPC/FS700/RED) then I can "punch in" in post to tighten up a shot, but I can't "punch out." So I'd rather have a 17-70 or even a 17-50 and punch in rather than simply not be able to shoot wide w/o changing lenses in those street-doc scenarios.


I'll add the 18-200 kit lens to the list it's a great option I just don't intend on using only Sony cameras.


The idea of trying to get by with a 24-105 with a gopro mounted on top incase you get boned on a wide shot is pretty legit though!
 
Punch In. (for 1080 delivery)

I had dreams of that when I tested the Scarlet, but it didnt work too well IMO.

I really wish the F5 would have a punch in when shooting at less than 4k

Not knowing you can crop but actually enlarging the image in the monitor and the like

There are canon and nikon 18-200's too, all pretty horrid but semi usable!

In the bigger picture I reckon a 16 or S16 camera and the canon 8-64 or zeiss 10-100 are the best solution for 'street' photography - those 'cine' lenses are almost affordable.

Again a camera like the F5 could have a mode to use them but that would take too much imagination from the sony engineers

S
 
Abelcine makes a kit to mount a 2/3" ENG lens to the F3.

You could always search eBay to find some old lenses that might do what you want, there are some weird ones out there, here are some that I saw while perusing eBay.

Pentax 18-270mm f3.5-6.3 in a K Mount
Leica 28-70mm f3.5-4.5 in R Mount
Contax 28-85mm f3.3-4
Nikon 28-85mm f3.5-4.5 in F Mount
Tamron 18-270mm f3.5-6.3 in EF Mount
Nikon 35-135mm f3.5-4.5 in F mount
Alpa 40-120mm f3.5 in M42 mount
Sigma 24-135mm f2.8-4.5 in Sigma Mount

That said, we should could always petition Angenieux to build one, or Voigtlander, or any of the listed above.
 
That Alpha 40-120 looks awesome, it would still be too wide even with a speedbooster but nice looking lens. Can't figure out did they make more like that ? Maybe like a 28-something?
Good point about ebay, looking around I found a MINOLTA 28-135MM 4-4.5 that could be cool with a speedbooster, and I suppose the Sigma 24-135mm f2.8-4.5 is an option too, although it looks pretty cheapo.

Pentax K-Mount DA 18-270mm f3.5-6.3 also kinda interesting.
 
I've been shopping for much the same solution (something more than ~24-70 ff-equiv coverage @ decent speed) on an AF100-owner budget (with planned rented-S35-sensor cam flexibility). Contenders thus far:

- Sigma 17-70 (+SB). With m43, I may get to use it with a SpeedBooster w/o vignetting (testing a rental soon, will see). NEG - non-constant aperture, extends
- Nikon 28-300 +SB. While I wouldn't have problems with vignetting on m43, two DX superzooms I tested DID vignette on m43 with the SB (Nikon 18-200, 18-300); might not bode well for FX-to-S35 superzoom focal reduction. NEG - non-constant aperture, extends, reverse focus
- Nikon 24-120/4 +SB. Right range, sharp enough, full coverage, constant aperture. NEG - extends, reverse focus (may or may not vignette on S35+SB)
- Sigma 18-35/1.8 +SB. Yeah, it's nothing that I said I was looking for, I just want to have a super sharp super speed wide zoom.

Already have the speedbooster, so once the invoices come in to pay off whatever decision I make, I'll be renting these to figure out what works well enough. LensRentals has (or will have) them all and a week's rental is far more reasonable than buying a lens that doesn't work.
 
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