Please help me

B

bafmoney

New member
I am extremely interested in investing money into a decent camera, and would prefer to go high definition.. BUT the only camera so far that everyone has been saying the picture is unbelievable (Canon HV20) has also been getting very bad audio feedback by a lot of these same people.

To sum it all up... What would be a 'best ALL AROUND' camera to purchase?

help.
 
I'm not sure if this is for the audio section really.. Unless you mean to create a debate about the internal mics of each camera. I think most people use external mics on their rigs and even the HV20 can utilize these with the right adaptor. In the case that i've misunderstood what you've asked and that you want to talk about how the camera sound is compressed then i would like to point out that HDV audio is inferior anyway :|

Give us some details on your price range, and mic requirements. In all honesty i've rarely used the camera internal mic but for things such as weddings or run-and-gun situations it may be interesting to compare the mics throughout the ranges.
 
bafmoney said:
To sum it all up... What would be a 'best ALL AROUND' camera to purchase?
Click to expand...

The most expensive one. :D

...A lot will depend on your budget. If you have a small budget ( under $3,000 ), then you might want to go with the Canon HV20 and use seperate digital recorder to record sound. ( a good recorder costs $500 - $2,000 )

Also consider that for good sound you will likely need mics, a good mixer, a boom-rig, etc... All of this can easily add another $2,000 - $3000 to your budget.

A better camera than the HV20 is going to cost you $4,000+ ( the image quality of the HV20 is quite surprising ), but then you can probably get by without the digital recorder, so the price isn't as bad.

If you are unsure about what to do, then I recommend starting with the HV20 and a digital recorder. You can always use the HV20 as an editing deck if you buy a better camera later on.
 
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If you're looking for camera advice, I'm sure there are better forum sections for that. This is the audio section.

If you're looking for audio advice relative to the HV20, then I suggest you first read the stickies at the top of the forum. What camera you are using really doesn't change the microphone recommendations - the only thing that may change is the need for extra accessories to connect the microphone to the camera.

They microphones in the amazon link above are all crap. Please ignore and again, read the stickies. There are lots of good options for you listed.

Phil
 
marketmd said:
If you want audio to match the HV20's great video, just get an external mic. It's just that simple, and not expensive.
Click to expand...

The problem is that the HV20 applies a serious amount of compression to the audio when compared to a digital recorder.

I was astounded how much better uncompressed audio sounds compared to the HV20, even when recording with my crappy little Zoom H4 recorder.

When I can find some time, I will post a couple of frequency range graphics, comparing pink-noise recorded with the HV20 versus the Zoom H4.
 
All HDV video cameras use the same audio compression, so getting a more expensive HDV cam (like Canon XH-A1) does not help with the basic HDV audio quality problem.

That said, HDV audio is passable. The other solutions is to shoot SD (yikes!) which has better-than-CD audio standard, or use an external recorder for audio.

Just get the HD20 first and an external mic, worry about audio compression issues only after you are convinced that that is what limits your audio quality (not mics or tecnique). No need to worry about it too early.
 
hdv have nothing with with the audio analog chain what probably make this camera sound night mar .
if you insist making movies with that one ,work in the film style and record separate. (and its not because the competition)
 
Thanks Market, Dingo and Petus. You've given me something to research.

To the rest - I realized this probably wasn't the best forum for my question a second after i posted.. c'mon.. it was like 5 in the morning.
 
I'd go with Oleg on this. Get yourself a Zoom H4 if you have budget, or somethinmg like a Tascam or Edirol if you have more money. Add a decent mic, cables and boom with mount, and you'll have stuff you can keep usiing if you move up.

In the meantime, you will have great picture and good sound for the stuff you shoot now.
 
Personally...being a sound man myself....It does not matter how good or bad a cams audio is...In other words i would opt for a device that is meant for audio and never use a cams on-board audio recording mechanism...but....that's just me.
 
I have a hard time understanding the mentality that on board audio is useless. Isn't all ENG audio, seen on every news station every night,
straight from the camera (with a boom mic plugged into it)? Wasn't every
movie, say pre 1970 (thousands of them), recorded with equipment now considered inferior to today's in camera audio? Yet we all watch them and
no one thinks twice about it.

I can understand wanting the best audio system possible in the camera. I have an HVX and believe it to have an excellent system. I also understand
that modern mixers and external recorders produce better audio than an in camera system- but isn't the difference more a matter of specs than anything
the average human ear could ever discern?
 
Isn't all ENG audio, seen on every news station every night,
straight from the camera (with a boom mic plugged into it)?
Click to expand...
Well, yeah, but you're talking about usually a $15,000+ shoulder-mount 2/3" camera with uncompressed audio and quality components throughout.

A far cry from the compressed HDV audio on a $1,000 consumer camcorder.

Wasn't every
movie, say pre 1970 (thousands of them), recorded with equipment now considered inferior to today's in camera audio?
Click to expand...
Er, no. I'd dare say that a Nagra would beat the living **** out of any $1,000 camcorder's components, even without it being further compounded by MPEG-1 compression.

but isn't the difference more a matter of specs than anything
the average human ear could ever discern?
Click to expand...
No, not at all. Again, keep it in context -- the HVX's audio circuitry, pre-amps, connectors, etc., probably cost 20 to 50 times as much as the HV20's. The HV20's entire product goes for something like $900 now -- how much of that can be in the audio section? (not to pick on the HV20, the same would apply to just about any consumer camera).

All 1/3" camcorders, prior to the DVX, had dreadful audio recording capabilities. The DVX really changed things -- but even so, a decent external pre-amp or mixer like an SD302 can make a noticeable difference in the quality of the audio recorded -- even when it's recorded in-camera! Pipe your audio through an SD302 into a DVX and you'll get a better recording than if you plugged the mic directly into the DVX. Makes sense -- of course there's better hardware in a dedicated piece of audio equipment than there is in a low-cost professional camcorder. But there's undoubtedly substantially better hardware in that low-cost professional camcorder than there is in an entry-level consumer camcorder.
 
Aside from the nasty MPEG compression, the HV20, as far as I can tell, has another issue - it has no audio line-in for recording, only mic-in... which means that, even if you use an external mixer, you'll still be dependent on the HV20's preampswhich are likely pretty crappy. Again, double systemis the way to go. Rather than trying to make the good bang-for-buck camera do everything, get a similar bang-for-buck recording device. I've heard good things lately about the Fostex FR2LE... other low-end recorders tend to need external preamps for good sound...
 
there is nothing wrong with hdv compression for recording dialog -
i don't think anyone would really can tell you inside complete mix if the sound was 320kbs or 16bit
the biggest problem usually is what you find before the ato d converter .
and most of these cameras are completely **** - especially the new Sony which sounds worst then the pd-150

by the way the the jvc 100-250 in hdv sounds better then dvx-100,
it sounds so good that i lost rentals for few grands on my 744 on the gig we shoot last year that after they heard the same material that was recorded on both devices - not that the 744 wasn't better but the difference didn't justify external recording .
good analog section and proper audio chain is what really matter not hdv or 24 bit .
by the way that about human voice not music recording
 
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