Piano, Scoring, Recording

samrwamr

samrwamr

Active member
Hey

So I'm going to record some stuff on my piano for scoring my movies. What is the best way to do this?

The piano is in my living room with vaulted ceilings - pretty good acoustics.

The main issue is microphone placement. By the time I get around to doing this I will hopefully have my Oktava MK012 - I know it's not a studio mic, but it should suffice. So, in the piano or 15 feet away, there are a few different options.

I have an iMac G4 with Soundtrack, GarageBand, etc. So should I record into my computer, or the DVX? I know the DVX has a great audio board so I was wondering if that was a possibility.

Any suggestions are appreciated
 
I'm not saying this to discourage you, more to encourage you to experiment, and to take ALL suggestions with a grain of salt: the piano is by far one of the most difficult things to record. It's a big instrument, producing sound over a wide area, in such a way that the full blended sound only exists at a distance where room acoustics come into play. It also has a tremendous range of sounds and dynamics.

First off, and most important... what style of music will you be playing? Different styles use very different micing techniques.

Second, I assume you mean MK012?

Third, I hope you mean "pair of Oktava MK-012s"... cause one mike is not the best way to record piano.

Fourth, you'll want to look into at least an external preamp, and likely an exterrnal recording device for great sound.

Let me know the answer to the first question, and I can give you more focused advice. For the record, I've recorded about 70 piano performances in the last year alone...

-Barry
 
Yeah, I know recording the piano is very difficult.

Style - Hard to explain. Not necessarily soft... sort of a Trevor Rabin/National Treasure style. My favorite film scorer is James Horner - I'm still a long... very long... way from playing like him! Although I'd like to get the 5 piano/puddy prepared strings/Apollo 13 sound, I know I have to start slow. Anyways, I play pretty loudly, however I have a few softer things for when necessary. Hope that answers a little - I can post some of my stuff if you want.

Yes, stupid me, I mean MK012

I'm not sure if 2 Oktava's will fit the budget right now. I have a plethora of different condenser mics though.

I have an external amp/mixing board, but no other recording devices.

I've done a ton of stuff on my little M-Audio Keystation 49e in GarageBand, but I'm sick of that fakey piano sound. My school has a very nice Korg keyboard that I can use if necessary, but I want to experiment with real piano recording.
 
Well if it were my I'd play the piece on a synth and record the midi to the computer and then use a gigastudio sampled piano. When done properly, I seriously doubt you'd be able to tell the difference between it and a real boesendorfer...

Now, if you can't do that, I'd probably use to mics, but I'm not sure if I'd go the stereo pair rout or not. depending on what sound you want I'd close mic the sounding board (distance and placement to taste) and then I'd set up a further mic to capture the piano with ambience. I'd then mix the two to taste. I know this wasn't a very technical explanation, but so much of it depends on how you want it to sound. It's like micing a sax, depending on where you place the mic on the stack you'll get a radically different sound. I like to place it low to middle for a dexter gordon sort of sound, but if you want a more modern sound you'll want to mic it up higher. You'll have to experiment.

I'll defer to Ullanta but I'd probably use at least one large diapghram condenser on the piano. In fact, I might use three mics. Close mic the sounding board and then set up a stereo pair for the room... So many options....

Matt
 
I just posted over you. The sound is dependent on the sample library and the controller used. A good piano sample library played properly and/or modeled afterward will sound very, very convincing.
 
MattC said:
A good piano sample library played properly and/or modeled afterward will sound very, very convincing.
Click to expand...

You don't hang out with a lot of pianists, do you? ;-)

Anyway, it's not just the quality of the library... the dynamics of the keyboard are completely different, and no electronic keyboard allows the expression of a real one. And Disklavier-ish systems, though strapped onto real keyboards, still don't capture the dynamics as well as many would like...


Samrwamr - what kinda mics you got? Any pairs at all? Send on a list and we'll see what we can do.

Style-wise, classical-ish stuff is never miced from anywhere inside the piano except in extreme circumstances... you don't want that "close to the soundboard" sound, and none of the hammer sounds, etc. Pop-y stuff often has a lot of the mechanics, and is much closer to the strings, hammers, board. Jazz can go from classical positioning to inside but not as close to the strings.

Prepared piano is a little more experimental to record (as it is to set up), but still tends to follow these style guidelines. But if the sounds are better from up close, by all means! Some preparations and extended piano techniques (think Cowell or Crumb) actually demand close micing and/or live amplification...

As to large vs. small diaphragm... always a good question. Yes, often a large diaphragm will be better, but it's a difficult choice, and has to do a lot with the specific mics. You don't want a very hyped mic (e.g., almost any recent, cheap large diaphragm mic with a "presence boost" around 5Khz), especially if you're relatively close... piano has a lot of natural high end and can easily sound very brittle. A pair of ribbon mics are great for close-micing a piano... that's my favored approach; it brings out the fullness and smooths out the high end. But some small diaphragms can sound great, too... and, in fact, a pair of omnidirectional Oktava MK-012's can be pretty sweet when set up right.

I like MattC's principle about capturing ambience, but I wouldn't sacrifice stereo for it. Do you have a mixer? Or a multitracker? One thing to be extremely careful about is room resonances... I find it hard to imagine a living room that doesn't have a few things that'll buzz when the piano hits the right frequencies. Be very careful of these!

btw, what kind of piano do you have? We're all assuming a grand, I think... uprights are a different story... but you wouldn't likely be preparing one of those either...
and tell us the model, as it also makes a difference....

-Barry
 
Hang on.

You don't hang out with a lot of pianists, do you? ;-)
Click to expand...

What's this supposed to mean? I'll admit, I'm a student. But I've been playing the piano for quite a few years, and there are samples nowdays that can sound almost exactly like the real thing - it can fool a lot of people.

no electronic keyboard allows the expression of a real one.
Click to expand...

That's why we have sequencers, notation programs etc. You can edit everything (or write it in from scratch if you don't use a keyboard), and make it sound convincing. Velocity, volume, pitch, everything can be controlled. You use a good sample library, clever sequencing and you're all set.

-Chris
 
Gotta agree with Chris AND ullanta on this one... Damn.

I guess it depends on who's listening. There is a lot of seriously amazing software out there at the moment for piano simulation, and I think a lot of the good programs WILL fool almost everyone that listens.

BUT from a playing point of view, a real piano is way better. and at the end of the day, theres a certain "unknown" quality about real piano that sets it apart.

I know that if it were me recording, with limited mics and gear, and I was using a piano that wasnt the best in an environment that wasnt the best, I'd probably go for the software. At least the samples in the programs around now WERE recorded in great situations.
 
Yeah I do actually! Some don't like when I say it and some agree completely. The piano is one of the easier instruments to sample and if done properly and played properly, most pianists can't even tell. The pianists I know who do this use a fully weighted hammer action keyboard, yamaha makes a very nice one - it feels like their grand pianos. You then have to go in and tweak the control settings on the midi file a bit, but not always.

I agree with timapter, if I had a great piano in a great environment with great recording gear - I'd record. Otherwise, sample it would be - especially for piano. Most other instruments no, but for most keyboard or percussion instruments, yes. Oh and french horns...
 
Yup. In fact, thinking about it, piano is the ONLY instrument i'd be really happy using sampled VST's for! Guitar - no, bass - no, drums - no, etc etc.
 
Yeah drums can be tricky it depends on what type of sound you're going for. But for most other purcussion (vibes, conga, wood block, that sort of stuff) I think you're better off going with samples. The sound if excellent if using a good library and you have great control.

As far as close micing the piano goes (and close is relative to the sound desired) I agree it depends on what sound you're going for. But if given enough recording gear, I'd probably put one mic in close no matter what. I may not use it, or I might blend it in with the other recordings just a hair to add some presence. But this is very subjective.
 
I own a Yamaha C3 grand piano and I record it pretty frequently. I'm letting you know that as my comments probably only apply to micing a grand piano.

Here are a few things I do on a regular basis.

Open up the lid / remove the lid and place a spaced pair of small condensors ( I use Neumann KM84i) aligned over the hammer area. Depending on the style of music, you might want the mics closer to the piano, or slightly behind or ahead of the hammers. I also use a large condensor in the room to capture a little ambience and then mix the whole thing together.

You definately don't want to try to do this with the DVX preamps alone. As ullanta and others have mentioned, recording piano can be very challenging, especially because it has such an incredible dynamic range. The DVX preamps are good for what they are, but they are not what I would call quiet or really able to take a lot of signal without breaking up.

If you mic the piano like that, you can really change the feel a great deal by just adding various amounts of compression.

Using a sampled piano might not be a bad suggestion here. It will fool some people, but it usually only convincing in a mix.
 
Ah well, samrwamr, you're the pianist and composer in question here, and you'll know if your style and playing translate well to a synthesized sound... but I'll still assert for anyone else out there who's not a pianist that there's a significant difference, and for the time being no electronic keyboard (whether "hammer action" or Disclavier or what) and no sample library are yet convincing enough for quality classical or jazz work... perhaps "in a mix" where a realistic piano sound isn't really the prime goal. And, Samrwamr, check out all the music you've mentioned, that you like, and see which of it was performed with a MIDI keyboard...

Also, as I said in my first post, it's challenging to record... but not so impossible as folks would have you believe.... and jump ship to MIDI after the first try! Play with it, it's fun, and will sound better once you've worked out a scheme for your house.
 
Thanks for the response everyone.

Yeah, I'm going to spend this weekend experimenting with mic placements and recording methods.

Here is a link to a short clip that I made in MIDI - GarageBand: iCompositions link
 
I don't know about the jazz statement ullanta - and I played a string bass (a purist if you will).. I was a jazz major at Berklee, toured with Ain't Misbehavin' and played with a lot of pretty heavy cats in some decent venues (including Gary Dial and Brad Mehldau)- most of the pianos weren't all that great! I had one friend who learned how to tune them and carried his own kit with him to tune the pianos up before the show. But I digress....

In any case, I don't exactly have a tin ear. And I've met some guys score for picture who can do work with midi that would blow you're mind. For low budget film scoring? Definitely do able. Hell, I've heard a guy do a string bass via midi (sampled) that definitely sounded like the real thing 99% of the time. And that's an instrument I played 8 hours a day for over ten years...
 
MattC, agreed. MIDI is used so much nowdays, TV, independant film, hollywood composers use it (often doubling real instruments, hans zimmer does this a lot) - there's nothing wrong with doing it. That said, there's something special and different about real performances that samples just can't do.

samrwamr, Good luck. I look foward to hearing how it goes.

-Chris
 
Oh I agree with this, obviously. My only point was, by his own admission, this can't isn't John Browning and he isn't playing a vintage Stienway (I don't think) in a concert hall being recorded with top notch equipment.

Assuming a start of the art sample library for the piano, a competent pianist and the ability to tweak after the fact, I'd rather have the midi version, than a so-so recording done live. And I think most folks who heard the two (including musicians) would choose the sampled version. Like I said, I have friends who are very talented pianists and make their living playing and scoring and THEY say the libraries are that good..

Anyway, you're right, if you are comparing a midi score that was keyed in, unless you have a very talented midi orchestrator it will sound stiff. But if it's played in by a talented pianist with experience playing a good midi controlled keyboard, it will sound good.

Matt
 
I agree with MattC. I think, it's totally possible to do realistic piano stuff with midi nowadays, no questions about that. There are some wonderful sample libraries for Gigastudio, like Yamahas grand pianos for example...god I love those. :thumbup: And also great VST-instruments. It's all the same to me how it has been done if it sounds good. :thumbsup:

Personally even if I have a great touch in my keyboard, I still would like to get a real piano someday. Just for the FEELING, you know....you can just start playing it without powering anything on...:thumbsup:

But recording the piano...no thanks. That's why we have those great sounding sample libraries around. :thumbup: Come on, this is definately not for beginners...expensive preamps&mics, good acoustics, you have to know exactly what you are doing...it's better to leave those dirty recording things to pro people.
 
MattC said:
I don't know about the jazz statement ullanta - and I played a string bass (a purist if you will).. I was a jazz major at Berklee, toured with Ain't Misbehavin' and played with a lot of pretty heavy cats in some decent venues (including Gary Dial and Brad Mehldau)- most of the pianos weren't all that great! I had one friend who learned how to tune them and carried his own kit with him to tune the pianos up before the show. But I digress....
Click to expand...

Exactly. Keep in mind that A) regardless of how bad the pianos are, did any of those heavy cats consider for a moment using a MIDI setup instead... and B) for a good clubby jazz performance, you'd likely need a "crappy piano" library with a "heavy smoke" filter and variable string tuning...

Recording the piano well does NOT take great equipment. It just takes patience and practice and a good ear. Many of the most revered piano recordings were made with equipment that is nowhere near as good as today's budget equipment.

Like I said, I'll let everyone decide for themselves whether MIDI is a viable approach for what they do. But I suggest that if they'll have pianists listening to it as a final product, they run it by some pianists before they decide...
 
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