Piano scene

P

Parapluie

Member
Hello sound engineers!

I'm going to record the sound in a scene with 1 person playing piano with monologue/singing at the same time. Two cameraes will shoot it, and it
must happen "live". The scene will be in a living room.

I have never done this kind of scene before. What is the best way to solve this?

The equipment i have is a sennheiser 416 mic, sennheiser G3 lav, sound devices 302/702 and zoom h4n. Is it hope to get useable sound from this?

Can i strap the zoom h4n inside the piano and record it with the internal stereo mic? Or will this be a terrible way to record a piano? And boom/lav the singing/monoluge (and try to get little at possible of the piano) and mix this together?

Or do you have other suggestions?

Thanks
 
Record the picture with reference audio, then mix clean piano soundtrack with singing track in post. Never record everything together on set.
 
If I get this right, you are recording the piano player talking, singing while playing?

If so you could probably just use a stereo pair and be good. Assuming the pianist is used to performing and can project over the piano.

You are probably wrong in the "it needs to be live" part. Unless it's a doc it probably doesn't.

If you are doing multi takes for angles and cut aways it probably shouldn't be "live" since your sync will be way off take to take.

The Zoom in the piano will probably completely blow out and you almost certainly don't want the lid closed (it can do bad things to the way the piano sounds).

So IS it OK to see the mics? Is your camera fixed? Are you doing many takes or just one? Are you doing multi angles or just one?

IF you are locked down there are a lot of options including shooting a clean plate and positioning stands and mics where there will be no movement in the shot and then just removing them in post.

If that isn't an option them some PZM's taped to the inside of the lid will do a good job with very low visibility on the piano. Them maybe lav the performer, or boom tight if that is an option.
 
marvinhello said:
Record the picture with reference audio, then mix clean piano soundtrack with singing track in post. Never record everything together on set.
Click to expand...

Actually you need to use that clean piano when shooting or the sync will be way off. I agree with not trying to do it all in one. That only works well if you are shooting one take one camera or one take multi cameras. As long as you are not trying to cut between takes of performances you can do it all in one. You loose a lot of post options but then you might not need a lot of post options. Really depends on the project.

The devils advocate opinion is that if you don't have experienced performers you can have a hell of a time getting them to lip sync convincingly.
 
I agree that this needs to be done live for the sake of syncing. Especially with things as complex as piano playing and singing. Musicals shoot a number of scenes with live performance mixed with canned performance later. So it can be done. Just make sure to isolate as much as possible. I recommend the lav if possible for the performer.
 
Cassius said:
I agree that this needs to be done live for the sake of syncing. Especially with things as complex as piano playing and singing. Musicals shoot a number of scenes with live performance mixed with canned performance later. So it can be done. Just make sure to isolate as much as possible. I recommend the lav if possible for the performer.
Click to expand...

Not sure who you are agreeing with. Musicals and well anything with "live" music is almost always pre recorded and filmed to playback for the simple reason that it is almost impossible to get solid sync between multiple takes if you are recording live performances. It is usually possible IF you have a really good editor and you cut with both in mind and then have a sound editor futz things into place. But that is a LOT of skilled work. Saying a guy with limited experience should try it because teams of highly trained and experienced people with really good tools and lots of money to throw at it can do it is not really all that convincing.

I have done it BUT it was one piece and I worked in a very inefficient way. I picked a master, looked through the B roll shots found ones that I wanted, OMFed the whole thing to Pro Tools. Cut the video on the cutaways so it would follow the audio (you can only do this in PTHD), moved those clips till the sound for that little bit matched the reference audio. Bounced the new cut video back to FCP and used it as a guide track to move the insert clips into place, did transitions and bounced it back to Protools to do the mix. Even then it gets futzy since you can only move the picture in full frame increments so you are almost always going to be off on any precise movement.

IF you have to do it in one you want to use multiple cameras. Otherwise your rolling the dice. It might come out fine or you may be very hamstrung in the edit.
 
Thanks for all advices!


I forgot to point out that this is more like a documentary. The person is going to look into the camera and talk, and sing/play for the "audience".
So it has to happen live with multiple cameras in one take. Its ok that we can see the mics in the shot. It doesnt need to be film quality over this, but i would like to get as good sound as possible.
 
Ok, so everything can be miced, and then he just talks into his mic in which he sings.

Just keep recording alle time...
 
To be clear, I was agreeing with the original poster that there is benefit to doing it live in a lot of cases. Note that he already said he's using a multi-camera setup, which is what makes it doable.
 
Parapluie said:
Thanks for all advices!


I forgot to point out that this is more like a documentary. The person is going to look into the camera and talk, and sing/play for the "audience".
So it has to happen live with multiple cameras in one take. Its ok that we can see the mics in the shot. It doesnt need to be film quality over this, but i would like to get as good sound as possible.
Click to expand...

With your existing gear, mic it with your boomed 416 on one channel and the lav on the other and select the best.

The main aim would be to keep the voice/vocal clear and let the piano stay in the background, you'll probably get enough piano in your 'live' living room.

Run some tests, if it's too live, hang as many blankets as you can, to kill as much room sound as possible.

Better still would be a good hypercardioid in place of the 416, the wider pattern would help the talent when he moves around a bit. Maybe rent one.

Cheers.
 
What kind of piano? Upright or grand?

I'd say use the Zoom on the piano, or better, rent a large diaphragm condenser like an AT4050 or AKG 414. (My vote is for the 4050) If it's a grand, open the top all the way, put the Zoom (or mic) on a mic stand and move it around until it sounds good while he's playing. Somewhere around the middle strings (not the middle of the strings, necessarily) and slowly move it towards and away from the player and closer and further from the strings until you find a good balanced sound. Point it away from the performer.

If it's an upright, use the Zoom (or mic) from the back. Start in the middle nearer the floor and move it around until you get the sound you want. Don't worry about picking up the performer with it. You really won't.

Use the lav on the performer and consider renting a vocal mic with a cardioid pattern. Use that as the main mic and use the lav as a safety. Don't use the shotgun.

Normally, you're striving for mic isolation. However, this is a situation having mic bleed can be a benefit. People record live musicians in a studio all the time and use mic bleed to benefit the music. Depending on the room, you may not even want to try to eliminate the room sound. IF YOU'RE CAREFULL, you won't need to isolate the mics. I know that runs contrary to what most people are used to, but don’t' be afraid of mic bleed in this situation. IF YOU DO IT RIGHT, it can help you. Take your time and trust your ears.
 
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