Photos of the Drama 2/3" CCD prototype

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Drama Cam workflow using TIF frames

Drama Cam workflow using TIF frames

Otis Grapsas said:
I sent you a PM Dan.
Click to expand...

Hi Otis,

I sent you a long reply, part of which I include here for anyone else who might want to help "beta test" my system using your de-Bayer program until I get mine setup to also process your data, maybe...

====

The NLE/AUDIO-MIX and CC control screens are in DANCAD3D.EXE (tm) and DANCAD87.EXE (tm), DANCAD87.EXE (tm) works faster for some tasks if you have a DX math co-processor in the CPU.

A fast computer is good, like better than 2GHz, and for the PIX playback frames using SSD in RAID 0 may allow up to 1280x720 for editing. On slower computers like down to 80486 133MHz the playback frames need to me made much smaller and the 640x480 or 320x200 video mode used.

The OS for Editing can be W95 OSR2, W98SE, ME, ME rescue boot disk, XP Home, or FreeDOS (using large disk support).

W95 and W98 have disk space limits, so ME is the best option since video modes up to 2048x1536 can be used with the film recorder software, and 1920x1440 can be used in the editing grading image preview to check the grading results.

Under XP home some computers will not display all video modes so rather than use 1920x1440 for preview and 1024x768 for the grading control screens, you are limited to 640x480 for playback, grading, and preview. Its a known bug in Windows it seems that is not going to be fixed by Micro$oft, I talked to them about it and they would not let me speak to the person in charge of that part of the OS.

On my Brothers computer the higher resolution video modes work under XP Home, on mine they do not. One fix for that is to format the main harddrive FAT32 which works up to 2TB, then install Windows XP Home you can do that with a freeware program called formatfat32.exe,

http://www.ridgecrop.demon.co.uk/index.htm?fat32format.htm

Micro$oft crippled the format command in XP Home to limit the disk size to 32mb rather than 2TB. FAT32 works with MAC and Linux computers so makes it easer to swap data drives around between systems. With a FAT32 disk you can re-boot a XP Home computer with the FreeDOS CD disk to do grading in the 1024x768 video modes. You may also be able to re-boot with ME rescue boot floppy for faster working.

Anyway, that covers what to run the programs on.

The current conversion in the CAD programs to make the PIX frames is slow, in the new 32bit program I am working on conversion from RAW sensor data frames to the PIX frames can go at maybe 4fps or faster, so the workpirnting issue has been delt with, its just not posted yet.

You can read the workflows for the RED ONE and ACAM DII on my web site, they would work for your camera if you can make TIF 48bpp or BMP 24bpp (the program will read BMP 8bpp color or grayscale but only saves those as grayscale).

In the program I am working on DNG/DPX/CIN support have been added, I hope to have that de-Bayer + image processing program out before the end of the year.

==

When you make the PIX files if you want color its best to use the 16bpp 640x480 mode and window the iamge into that area whatever size your computer's speed will allow, in the playback Pick and View commands I think you press [Ctrl]+[W] to see the dropped frame readout, if you just see 0 in the lower left then your computer is playing back all the frames, if it blinks 1 or 2 from time to time then the HD is not keeping up. You should not have other programs running in background.

It is possable to play the sound on the same computer by hooking the SMPTE back into the joy-stick port from the RS-232 port via a T102 and SMPTE>MTC box, but the computer playback will glitch since it is too much workload, its much better to use two computers, one running my programs and the other running Magix DeLuxe (tm) or some other program that reads SMPTE or MTC and can sync a WAV playback, you can even use a Linux or MAC for that if you want to since my audio MIX is just a WAV file.

The two computer setup is not NEEDED, but is best for serious work, you can combine the WAV and a set of DVD size BMP files in VirtualDUB to make an AVI file, and watch that it media player or XNVIEW to check the audio sync and mix ratios, just like going to a screening room after cutting your mag-film and workprint, its just a bit slower than using the "instant" sync playback with two computers.

http://www.virtualdub.org/

XNVIEW is good for DVD size playback since you can view on a black background in a loop,

http://www.xnview.com/

==

You need to agree to the EULA before you start to "beta test" the programs,

http://www.dancad3d.com/S0000000.HTM

The RED ONE workflow using TIF frames is in,

http://www.dancad3d.com/S0620200.HTM

Just change the steps a bit for your RAW to TIF conversion program, if you make DPX then XNVIEW can convert those to BMP maybe for you until I get my de-Bayer program released.

There is an example color correction here,

http://www.dancad3d.com/S0410300.HTM

The programs are in the Download section, the CAD programs (EXE version) are at the link at the top of each page marked "Get Main Zip".

One thing of not in the current documentation is the new Extract command added to the Pick command, if you load a magizine of shots with non-stop sound, you can cut that into shots in the other shot folders, it can also be used to make sound-carry-over shots with an MOS insert.

Some documentation is here,

http://www.dancad3d.com/S3X3X734.HTM

http://www.dancad3d.com/S0380000.HTM

http://www.dancad3d.com/S0385000.HTM

=

To finish a feature film you would need at least five to twenty junk computers with a very fast computer for editing. Windows ME (tm) or maybe Windows XP Home (tm) are the best choice with harddrives formatted FAT32 since you can use 2TB disks to store the frames on, you will need about 20TB of data although not all needs to be on the edit computer at the same time since you just keep the small PIX "proxy" frames for playback there, you can swap the data disks for maybe 5 minutes each of full size frames.

To set the PIX sync playback frame ("proxy" files) window size and aspect ratio press [~] from the CAD main menu, to find the edit list select [F]iles > tilities > [K]inema > [E]dit-list.

In the edit list you can scroll of the right side of the screen (spread sheet moves left) to assign other drive letters for data drives so you can get more than 2TB of frames loaded.
Its best to fill the edit computer with "dummy" data drives so that windows does not re-assign the drive letters when you boot the computer with a data drive being used on another computer for processing etc.

My email in on my site, so you can contact me if you are trying to "beta test" the programs, just be sure to put the right subject line on the email since it may get deleted otherwise, i.e. "Drama Cam 24/7 support submission". I do not check this site often yet, so if you PM me it may be a while before I would reply.

====

You can read a bit about the sound mixing part of the program here:

http://groups.google.com/group/aus....F-8&oe=utf-8&q=free+feature+film+sound+mixing

Dan Hudgins
tempnulbox (at) yahoo (dot) com
http://www.DANCAD3D.com
San Francisco, CA, USA
 
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W95 OSR2, W98SE, ME, ME rescue boot disk, XP Home, or FreeDOS - Is this some kind of a cruel joke?

No offense here Dan, but I looked at your website and was barely able to find out what it is all about.

Can you explain to me, what exactly your program does and why it is better as just dropping
RED 4k RAW files in Premiere CS5 and edit them in realtime?

Thanks, Frank
 
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Postmaster said:
W95 OSR2, W98SE, ME, ME rescue boot disk, XP Home, or FreeDOS - Is this some kind of a cruel joke?

No offense here Dan, but I looked at your website and was barely able to find out what it is all about.

Can you explain to me, what exactly your program does and why it is better as just dropping
RED 4k RAW files in Premiere CS5 and edit them in realtime?

Thanks, Frank
Click to expand...

Yeah it's way too technical for me as well...

G.
 
It sounds very complex. Drama is about keeping it simple.

Of course, it makes sense to insert a conversion to a proxy like DV or some HD flavour and go back to uncompressed HD or DPX for finishing. Some will want to use Drama as a camcorder is some situations. Also, some people will not want to edit uncompressed and there is no way you are going to force editors to upgrade everything they use and handle the terrabytes of uncompressed, R3D or your 2K/4K film scan. They are editors, they are not post houses, they could do without additional software/hardware issues, not to mention the costs.

What I chose for Drama is one tool that does it all:

1) Metadata changes and image manipulation using the Drama algorithms.

2) Output to SD, HD, DNxHD, etc with proxy (fast) or production (slow) quality. Proxy quality for fast output and editing without the processing and storage requirements. Production quality for treating Drama as a high quality camcorder and inserting it into an existing workflow, for those who do not need uncompressed quality in all projects.

3) Conform/output to uncompressed AVI/MOV, DPX, TIFF with production quality. Full uncompressed quality. HD video for HD output, DPX for film output.
 
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I don't think anyone who has operated the old Bell & Howell or BNCR Mitchell cameras would have much nostalgia for them. That form-factor is gone the way of the dodo for good reason.

I'd advocate for something that marries the cat-on-shoulder comfort of an Aaton to the relatively straight-forward Alexa menus. One of my favorite cameras is the 235, which is, of course, an MOS rig. But it is light and incredibly comfortable ergonomically. All day long.

I like the Panaflex Elaine as well - there is no reason Drama needs to be curvy to be sexy. Though I do like curvy.
 
DI system

DI system

Postmaster said:
W95 OSR2, W98SE, ME, ME rescue boot disk, XP Home, or FreeDOS - Is this some kind of a cruel joke?

No offense here Dan, but I looked at your website and was barely able to find out what it is all about.

Can you explain to me, what exactly your program does and why it is better as just dropping
RED 4k RAW files in Premiere CS5 and edit them in realtime?

Thanks, Frank
Click to expand...

To edit 4k R3D in real time with 4K playback would require high cost hardware, and R3D are not uncompressed, the workflow for TIF from R3D is to integrate footage shot with 35mm film cameras and other cameras compressed or uncompressed.

The reason I posted here was to mention that there is a "freeish" post solution for uncompressed high resolution Digital Cinema Cameras, and that I was making an offer to look into adding direct de-Bayer support in the program I am working on so that "Drama cam" footage could be processed to get an alternative "look".

If "Drama cam" is going to be able to save Bayer DNG files, then there will be many options for processing those frames into RGB file types.

If "Drama cam" is going to have a "closed" filetype for its RAW sensor data that can ONLY be converted into RGB frames by the manufactures software, then users of the camera will have their de-Bayer options limited to that one source of "looks" as they relate to the de-Bayer processing.

My system is not just to edit, but to do an uncompressed DI, from film scan to making the 35mm print to project. It can also be used with images made by various cameras, such as uncompressed Digital Cinema Cameras, and the color corrected uncompressed frames can be used with other film recorders and for making a DCI package.

If you have made a 4K DI then you know some things about the time involved and the volume of data, something that would be difficult to do using stock tools for little money (I am speaking of all steps involved to get a print).

The note about the workflow for RED ONE, was just because if you want to use "Drama cam" now, today, my de-Bayer program is not out and supporting it as I have not gotten any sample RAW data files yet, so the manufactures de-Bayer would need to be used, just like REDCINE is used with closed R3D files.

So the main question is,

Will "Drama cam" have an open DNG or other RAW format like Acam dII,

Or will "Drama cam" have a closed sensor data format like R3D?

If its RAW sensor data is open then I can look into supporting it, if not then 48bpp TIF would the the path for support maybe.


When you have done 4K DI/MIX/CC/FILMOUT at home before, what was your workflow?

How much did it cost to convert your R3D into a release print, total for hardware, software, and lab fees?

My system is desigined to reduce the total cost of going from film negative or True RAW Digital Cinema Camera frames to a finished 35mm release print, so to compare it with other workflows you would need to know their total costs for truly Equivalent results.

Support for closed cameras that can make TIF files is incidental, not a primary function or goal.
 
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Duplication

Duplication

Otis Grapsas said:
It sounds very complex. Drama is about keeping it simple.

Of course, it makes sense to insert a conversion to a proxy like DV or some HD flavour and go back to uncompressed HD or DPX for finishing. Some will want to use Drama as a camcorder is some situations. Also, some people will not want to edit uncompressed and there is no way you are going to force editors to upgrade everything they use and handle the terrabytes of uncompressed, R3D or your 2K/4K film scan. They are editors, they are not post houses, they could do without additional software/hardware issues, not to mention the costs.

What I chose for Drama is one tool that does it all:

1) Metadata changes and image manipulation using the Drama algorithms.

2) Output to SD, HD, DNxHD, etc with proxy (fast) or production (slow) quality. Proxy quality for fast output and editing without the processing and storage requirements. Production quality for treating Drama as a high quality camcorder and inserting it into an existing workflow, for those who do not need uncompressed quality in all projects.

3) Conform/output to uncompressed AVI/MOV, DPX, TIFF with production quality. Full uncompressed quality. HD video for HD output, DPX for film output.
Click to expand...


Many of those steps are done in my existing programs, and some in the new program I am finishing up.

My programs are "freeish" for "beta testing" on feature films and other similar projects, perhaps. The "ish" part comes in when some users want to "beta test" features that use special hardware, much of which can be found used for not much.

I guess your software is not going to be "free"?

I had thought that since Acam dII was going for CinemaDNG support, that you might as well, but does it sound that your workflow will be closed in some steps?

My edit list just accesses frame files in a folder structure so any other program can be used to work on those files at any time in the project development, like when VFX are done on frames, or other special filters are needed in third party programs.

Likewise with Audio in my programs, while my programs can do the sound mixing for the sound track automaticlly, any parts of the track can be taken out to other programs and put back in as needed for special filtering and external mixing or editing.

How are you going to handle complex motion picture sound tracks in your system, and if not in your system, what would the cost be for the third party software needed?

Sound is "half" the cinema experence, so I have done a great deal to development on feature film sound mixing in my system, to go with the uncompressed DI system for high resolution frames.

If you would like to have Interoperability we can talk about what that could involve.

What is simple or not is all in what is familiar, anything that is not understood may seem complex.

Making a feature film on the level of quality productions is not a simple or fast thing to do at home by yourself, and doing it at low cost even less so unless you have a system desigined for such a project, perhaps.

I wish you success in your projects, if people have specific questions about details of workflow they see above how to email me.
 
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There is no reason to not publish the format specifics of the format. There is no format really, it's just a stream of bytes. But that's not the problem.

I don't see what's good about using huge files for creative edits. The decompression (for Red) and debayer preview (for red and everything else) is fast these days on some editors but the real problem is storage, not playback processing. I can present a 75mbyte/sec uncompressed as uncompressed SD to the editor. It costs nothing. But the data will still need to be read and present on all editing stations. Red are 42mb/sec and increasing to 250mbyte/sec. We are talking very large files. This is why I think a proxy makes sense.

For finishing in bayer cameras, it makes sense to have the image developed to a high quality format such as uncompressed RGB or DPX because that's the only way to get a real preview at full resolution without spending all your processing resources in real time high quality debayering.

That's the recommended workflow from a series of experts who have worked in film production and film recording. From an engineering, image quality, data management and editing efficiency point of view I agree 100%.

I'm sure that a lot of work was put in this app but I can't even start it. If it was packed into a setup file or something that immediately works out of the box in a windows xp sp2 and later 32bit/64bit system many would want to try it. Time is money.
 
What won't start?

What won't start?

Otis Grapsas said:
I'm sure that a lot of work was put in this app but I can't even start it. If it was packed into a setup file or something that immediately works out of the box in a windows xp sp2 and later 32bit/64bit system many would want to try it. Time is money.
Click to expand...

The steps to "start" the progams are on the download pages,

1) Make a folder

2) Copy the zip into the folder, and extract all the files in the zip into that folder

3) Go to "run" button in windows lower left desk top and enter "command" to get a command prompt

4) change to the folder path using the CD command like CD C:\TEST

5) run the install file, like

C:\TEST\>INSTALL INSTALL

6) enter the program name

C:\TEST\>DANCAD87

7) Pick the SVGA mode in the video menu if you have a SVGA card.

8) Try features with 640x480 video modes since LCD monitors do not always switch into other modes under XP Home.

Once the PIX files have been made, there is no real "delay" on making edits, since the edits are just pointers to the filenames, and you can make a "play list" for the View command to watch an edit very fast if you are not doing a sound mix just MOS playback, if you are doing a sound mix then there is some render time for the audio part.

Its posable to make a windows "shortcut" after that.

My system uses fast loading PIX frames for editing, the HD to near 8K frames are not needed all the time during editing.

As I mentioned you can dual-OS boot the computer if the HD is formatted FAT32, the freeDOS CD just needs to be inserted into the CD drive, and boots in a few seconds, then take it out and reboot back to Windows version whatever, if there are windows issues. I have run the programs under XP Home sp2, in fact today I did some CC for the de-Bayer tests, so what's the problem?

http://www.freedos.org/freedos/files/

Using FreeDOS on the render farm computers helps keep the OS costs down, could save $$$$$.

==

I was wondering if your "free" software will be open for use with other True RAW Digital Cinema Cameras, like Acam dII and Kinor-2K?

If so, when do you think your "system" will be posted for download so people can try other camera's data with it?

Do you have any screen shots of your NLE, does it use a timeline? How many audio tracks does it mix total?

Are you going to have a version of your "system" for Ubuntu Linux?

http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop/get-ubuntu/download
 
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Dan Hudgins said:
I was wondering if your "free" software will be open for use with other True RAW Digital Cinema Cameras, like Acam dII and Kinor-2K?

If so, when do you think your "system" will be posted for download so people can try other camera's data with it?
Click to expand...

The software I'm developing is a simple tool, it's not a finishing, advanced color correction, effects, surround mixing or anything like that. The purpose of the software is to allow custom image development by the Drama algorithms (demosaicking, color correction, film emulation, etc). Other cameras have their own software so there is no reason to support them.

Have you used the raw development software coming with a dSLR? It's something similar for video recorded with this camera.
 
Btw, we are starting to pollute the thread with technical info on very old computers and operating systems. It does not help the thread:)
 
Workflow

Workflow

Otis Grapsas said:
The software I'm developing is a simple tool, it's not a finishing, advanced color correction, effects, surround mixing or anything like that. The purpose of the software is to allow custom image development by the Drama algorithms (demosaicking, color correction, film emulation, etc). Other cameras have their own software so there is no reason to support them.

Have you used the raw development software coming with a dSLR? It's something similar for video recorded with this camera.
Click to expand...

The de-Bayer program I am working on should run under Windows 7, but I have not tested that yet, its 32bit.

What workflow and NLE do you invision people using with output from your de-Bayer software?
 
Dan Hudgins said:
The de-Bayer program I am working on should run under Windows 7, but I have not tested that yet, its 32bit.

What workflow and NLE do you invision people using with output from your de-Bayer software?
Click to expand...

It's up to them. They can get different formats, video with sync audio or image and sound files, from common HD formats to uncompressed HD and DPX. Any affordable editing app supports HD formats, almost all of them support uncompressed, some support DPX and TIFF.

For film output I suppose most will edit a proxy and finish in DPX. For HD delivery it will probably be uncompressed AVI/MOV instead.
 
Wow so Drama started :)

I love that old kitchen handle Otis. And all the beauty is inside. ;)
 
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