Paying someone on one project, then no pay (meals only) on next project - Reasonable?

S

sb2012

Member
I'm a newbie director and just trying to figure some things out in terms of compensation for cast and crew. I just did my first short film that was 2 day shoot. I paid the one actor we had $100 because she seemed pretty experienced and we had an important scene that took place on a beach at night time in the freezing cold and she had to wear pajamas for that one scene. The only other person I paid was our camera man who had plenty of experience under his belt, he does both union and non-union projects, he's an independent contractor, I paid him $80.

I'm planning to use the same camera man again when I do my first feature film. However, being that its a feature there will be more shoot days involved, obviously. Being that my expense may go towards other things (i.e. props, makeup, lighting, etc.), I was considering maybe just not paying him this time and instead pay for his meals?

I guess what I'm trying to ask is... is it reasonable to pay someone the first time around and not pay him the second time around BUT pay for his meals? Taking his extensive experience into consideration as well...

If the answer is no and that I should pay him, let's say we have a 7-14 day shoot, what would be a reasonable daily amount to pay that won't break my bank? $30 a day perhaps? $50 and above is kinda killing me.
 
If you paid them on the short, it's naturally they will expect to be paid on the feature. And if you started out paying them then I would continue to pay them.

But I do understand you don't have the money, so what I would do is then have a conversation with everyone you paid the last time and explained to them you simply don't have the budget this time around to compensate but you still would love them to be involved. Don't expect them to say sure I'll do it, but respect their decision either way and do not take it personal.

There are plenty of other actors who is willing to work for food and the experience but if this other actor is already experience and have been paid before, than don't expect her to do it with just meals and experience, but then again maybe she will believe in your vision and just go along, but you have to be honest with her upfront that way it leaves you time to look for another actor. But if you absolutely want to have her in this project, than my advice would be to delay production and save some money to compensate her.

As for the DP, same thing goes for him. Now as you know, you should always plan to pay your actors/crew, but sometimes there's just no money. But I find the best thing to do is to have a conversation with everyone about the budget. But if you plan on paying one person than I say you try and pay everyone else, but if you can't pay everyone else then at least explain the reason to them. As for how much, I would say at least $100/day for your actors and DP. Typically the DP gets paid more but since you only paid him $80 the last time, I'm sure he'll be fine with $100, but ask.
 
no, it is not right, but it may be necessary. The end game is what matters. CapitalP's advice is spot on. Gonzo is absolutely right, also. Great sales pitch face to face without the malarky and a reward on the back end for the loss up front.
 
something I want to add that a few others have touched on is:

You can't pay him NOTHING. That's a total dick move. What you MIGHT be able to do is DEFER his pay until you sell your movie... which is likely, for all intents and purposes, the same as paying him nothing... but you really can't ask him to work for free when you have the possibility of striking it rich. Even if you tell him there's no money in the budget to pay him for his time, make sure you offer him deferred pay or points or something.

I will absolutely never work for someone that pays me nothing. If they end up with the next Star Wars and make a billion dollars, I'm going to need more than a handshake and a thank you.

edit: in fact, in terms of fairness, I usually try and make it clear that if their pay is deferred, I'll make sure all of my crew gets paid even before I make a dime.
 
well, i guess everyone has their own opinion, but i would be pretty insulted if someone else was trying to make money off my work and not compensate me. it's one thing to not be able to afford to pay me... it's something else to say, even if you could afford it, you wouldn't.

plus, at least this way you save the trouble of walking to the grocery store for that ticket :)
 
Just because you're told "deferred" payment, it doesn't mean jack when/if the movie gets made anyway unless you have signed agreements. And even then, what are you going to do if they stiff you? Hire a lawyer at $60+ per hour?

Besides, can you name any deferred payment projects that fully funded their crew after the fact?
 
Gary Huff said:
Hire a lawyer at $60+ per hour?
Click to expand...

You know a lawyer that works for $60 a hour? Where is that!


Human nature is funny, if you pay someone, unless you struck up a friendship and mutually invested in a project together thru collaboration - I don't know how one could actually ask someone to do *more* work for free after paying them.

Sell him on it and offered a deferred pay (and some real upfront pay too!) - You want him to do his best work for you.

Film life! whew!
 
Gary Huff said:
Just because you're told "deferred" payment, it doesn't mean jack when/if the movie gets made anyway unless you have signed agreements. And even then, what are you going to do if they stiff you? Hire a lawyer at $60+ per hour?

Besides, can you name any deferred payment projects that fully funded their crew after the fact?
Click to expand...

i think you may have missed what i was getting at...
 
Some things you can do to pay them and keep costs down is to also offer them net gross. Normally when people get percentage of the profits, but most of these films have quite some expenses, meaning getting a profit is not always very likely. But offering net means that any revenue the film will make, they will get percentage from that revenue, not after adjusting for expenses. Say the DP gets a 10% revenue. Then that you win a prize of $1000 at a festival, then he will get $100 from that. With such a contract, you are almost guaranteed making some extra afterwards.
 
So you are doing something out of passion and yet are unwilling to spend money on it??? On every of my personal project i paid my crew - $100-200/day and because i couldn't afford to spend much i would only get the bare-bone crew - usually just a few people. So my out of packet expenses usually are around $1-1.5k/day. I can't believe that if you are truly passionate about this you can't spend that much. Unless you are a poor student, if you are unwilling to spend some $ then you are simply not passionate enough. Period. Moreover you are creating an unhealthy environment of double standards - when you work for others you want to get paid but when others work for you, you expect cheap/free labor. This double standard undermines the industry. Lastly, if you are making a feature lenght films and still have no money then you have not prepared yourself properly - you have not talked to enough people to get support of enough folks that could allow you to raise your minuscule budget of 30-50k. In other words you are acting on an impulse, and that's not a great way to make a feature length film as you gonna be stuck in a 6 month long period of production and post on that impulse film.
 
The problem isn't getting the DP to agree to taking no money. The problem is KEEPING him for no money. Especially since you paid him before. He will have a bitter taste in his mouth, and will leave you high and dry for the first paying job that comes along.
 
Getting paid on a project is always a unique situation...and to a large degree Gary is right...most of these films dont see any money on the back end...most dont even get released. It's more about if you can get someone really passionate about being part of the project...if you can do that anything is possible. It's always nice to get paid but I still do projects for free if I really believe in them and I really hope the guy who makes them does get rich...it means Im in a successful film....and thats a one in a million shot. There are guys who'll try to rip you off but really it comes down to common sense...some projects just reek and others are legitimately trying to do something special..sort the sh*t from the clay and never say never

Cheers,
Stan The Man
 
You can always do whatever you want but ultimately you're paying for someone to stick around. Usually you don't pay on the short, since it's only one or two days, but then pay on the feature, seeing as how it could be an entire month or more. Not paying for that long you'll start to get a crew that ditches you for the first little bit of money that comes their way.

I have an honest question for you, do you work on other peoples films ever? Or just your own? As someone who does this for a living and primarily works on other peoples movies, I'm sure I look at all this a little differently.
 
You paid him $80 for a two day shoot?

I think describing that as pay is a little off - most cameras are depreciating at $40 a day - he worked for free

As a camera person here is my POV

I want shots for my reel - are you blowing something up ? do you have a really hot female lead - a fantastic story - great onset contacts to make - something for me - whatever it is

maybe you have something to trade too - does the Camera person need some of your skills for his project?

If its the right thing I will do it for nothing/food/fuel for a two day weekend shoot - but I will be taking a copy of the rushes to cut into my reel - I want the rushes because you might mess up the colour in your grade or lose them or abandon the project or do a terrible edit or or or..

As for a feature you are going to need a very collaberative, open, honest, fair, and written down agreement to get people for no upfront.. IMO
 
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