Panasonic Varicam 35 & Varicam HS

[steve phillipps]

...and I know for certain that there are plenty of Varicam lovers out there who would love to have a cutting edge Panasonic on the field again - me included.
Steve
...and FWIW, I've been pretty sure from the start --- these Varicams are gonna be SERIOUS money!

 

[ryaninoz]

I am surprised at the lack of buzz about this camera since it was announced. The gh4 has 39 pages of comments, the varicam 11. The bmc had hundreds of pages of speculation before anyone saw it and the varicam seems to be getting a lukewarm response. I think it looks bang on the money ( apart from being restricted to PL lenses only ) 25-40 k on a camera doesn't worry me as its my primary tool of income. Is the lack of buzz indicative of where the industry has gone, is everyone these days more interested in 2-3000 dollar toys than tools like the varicam? Who else is considering the varicam as being a contender for their next camera?

 

[Guest]

I am surprised at the lack of buzz about this camera since it was announced. The gh4 has 39 pages of comments, the varicam 11. The bmc had hundreds of pages of speculation before anyone saw it and the varicam seems to be getting a lukewarm response. I think it looks bang on the money ( apart from being restricted to PL lenses only ) 25-40 k on a camera doesn't worry me as its my primary tool of income. Is the lack of buzz indicative of where the industry has gone, is everyone these days more interested in 2-3000 dollar toys than tools like the varicam? Who else is considering the varicam as being a contender for their next camera?

I think it is more indicative of where this forum is. Majority of users are owners, and majority of owners are not going to spend more than 8 grand on a body.

I am excited about the new varicam. But like the f55, f65, Alexa, Amira, Dragon, it is just not on my purchase radar. There is also nothing revolutionary about the form or specs of the new varicam. It looks liek ti will be a good work horse, and if the IQ is on par or better than Sony, than that gets me excited.

I like the Amira, but 2megapixal images have never been inspiring to me. 4K is a minimum resolution for me. Similar to the difference in 16mm and 35mm, I know 16 is good, but 35. And 70mm? so nice. But 8megapixels is a good reference point. Don't need more.

So, if we have a new 4k, mojo filled camera with a Varicam badge, that is exciting. And to that I would say, welcome back Panny.

But since I may not be using one anytime soon, I will stick to what I know. I will peak and dream from the side lines until another time.

 

[vanvideo]

As a side note, I contacted Panasonic to find out when they were planning on releasing the AVC/Ultra update for the HPX600. It's been almost two years, and no info. They said maybe around NAB. After digging a little deeper, they said it's possible the 600 may never get an Ultra update.
Kinda sucks if you already invested in the camera, and still be in limbo after so long. I was considering upgrading to the 600, but now I think I might go Sony PMW-300. Maybe it won't do 1080/60P, but I can live with that.

 

[steve phillipps]

like the f55, f65, Alexa, Amira, Dragon, it is just not on my purchase radar.
I like the Amira, but 2megapixal images have never been inspiring to me. 4K is a minimum resolution for me. Similar to the difference in 16mm and 35mm, I know 16 is good, but 35.
But since I may not be using one anytime soon, I will stick to what I know. I will peak and dream from the side lines until another time.

Not quite sure I understand this - 4k is minimum for you and you love your 35mm but the likes of F55 and Dragon are not on your radar? You speak as if you've shot 35mm and all sorts of 4k but then it sounds as though you're a hobbyist DSLR type shooter - just trying to figure out the sector you're in as I couldn't from your post?
And it's a bit odd to say that 2mp images have never been inspiring to you -4k has only been around for a short time - does that mean that until recently no image has ever inspired you?! Phantom HD is 2k, so is Alexa.
Steve

 

[steve phillipps]

After digging a little deeper, they said it's possible the 600 may never get an Ultra update.
Kinda sucks if you already invested in the camera, and still be in limbo after so long. I was considering upgrading to the 600, but now I think I might go Sony PMW-300. Maybe it won't do 1080/60P, but I can live with that.

What a shocker! It's a horrible business. Say what you like about RED but they are always upfront about what's going on with their products.
The official word with the PMW300 is that it won't do 1080/60P - another case of a manufacturer dangling a tantalising possibility in front of us, probably getting a fair few sales on the strength of it and then saying no it won't happen!
Steve

 

[Guest]

Not quite sure I understand this -

Hi Steve, we are all a bit of contradictions sometimes.

4k is minimum for you and you love your 35mm but the likes of F55 and Dragon are not on your radar?

4K is where I stop thinking about resolution. It happened in the stills world for me around the same time.

I have watched 35mm projection growing up, and still appreciate it when it is available. I have also grown up seeing 16mm and 8mm projection. 35mm and 70mm always seemed more gorgeous.

The f55 and Dragon are just merely out of my price range to personally own. I will enjoy using them when I get the chance, as I will soon, but I will not buy one at this time. They are nice, and represent the beginning of digital motion capture.

You speak as if you've shot 35mm and all sorts of 4k but then it sounds as though you're a hobbyist DSLR type shooter - just trying to figure out the sector you're in as I couldn't from your post?

I have worked with Alexa, film, and 4k, and to be honest, I want to see improvements on them all, but will use any of them for a job.

And it's a bit odd to say that 2mp images have never been inspiring to you -4k has only been around for a short time - does that mean that until recently no image has ever inspired you?! Phantom HD is 2k, so is Alexa.
Steve

There is a big difference between good set design, extreme slowmo, excellent story, masterful light and composition, editing, etc, and liking something strictly from a resolution standpoint. On the resolution side of things, 4k/8mp is where I think things start to get 'good'. SD and HD work, but they are resolutions that do not inspire me. Have you ever digitally pushed in on a wide shot with Alexa footage? Instant murky.


There is a practical element to the professional world, so my professional opinion is very different from my personal opinion. sometimes I get these crossed in my posts. I know many people who still make a good living on SD for live events. I know news has to have a pipeline and other standards it has to adhere to. And I know that majority of digital cinema projection is still 2k. The practical is always saying one thing. But I try not to lose sight of what I want or like. When I painted or drew, I always enjoyed the texture of what I created, when I went to video back in the 90's texture was not an option.

Personally, I have always disliked HD/2k/2mp (yes, since HD was introduce officially, and before 4k was a common term). HD, to me, was not true resolution, as hair and spots became aliased and false detail was created. And at the same time, it does not allow the image to be solely geometric, as SD does. As nice as the color and dynamic range are on the Alexa compared to other cameras, the resolution is not inspiring. But in the scheme of things, one thing like resolution is not going to be the end all. Resolution is a small part of a bigger whole. But at this point, we know lower resolution isn't the only way to get good images. Dragon and D800 are some of the top performing sensors available on the market today.

Am I a hobbyist? I hope so. I try to be. Professionals are pragmatists, and they strive for efficiency and return on investment over all other factors, but occasionally there are crafts people and hobbyist that get into that world too. I have always tried to keep a passion, but realize that can get in the way of a professional thought process occasionally.

 

[steve phillipps]

Good answer well put James.
I don't agree with you though - I think there's been tons of "good" and even excellent and utterly gorgeous stuff over the years that I've seen on Super 16, HD and 2k. I think 4k is pretty pointless to be honest. You have your opinion, I have mine, all good
Cheers,
Steve

 

[combatentropy]

Ouch.

Anyway, I agree with James0b57 that there's a difference between practical and ideal, and many forum arguments stem from misunderstanding the context. I also agree with steve phillips, that 4K is pointless Okay, really what I mean, and I've said this before, is I would rather have global-shutter, 13-stop, 120-fps-slow-mo, 10-bit, 4:2:2 2K on $10/hour, commodity media and renderless editing on commodity computer hardware before 4K. We're getting there, but in some cases I see manufacturers jump to 4K before rounding out 2K.

 

[txdp]

4k on a wide shot is more necessary and appreciable than 4k on a close up

 

[Run&Gun]

I am surprised at the lack of buzz about this camera since it was announced. The gh4 has 39 pages of comments, the varicam 11. The bmc had hundreds of pages of speculation before anyone saw it and the varicam seems to be getting a lukewarm response. I think it looks bang on the money ( apart from being restricted to PL lenses only ) 25-40 k on a camera doesn't worry me as its my primary tool of income. Is the lack of buzz indicative of where the industry has gone, is everyone these days more interested in 2-3000 dollar toys than tools like the varicam? Who else is considering the varicam as being a contender for their next camera?

I think it is more indicative of where this forum is. Majority of users are owners, and majority of owners are not going to spend more than 8 grand on a body.

I am excited about the new varicam. But like the f55, f65, Alexa, Amira, Dragon, it is just not on my purchase radar. There is also nothing revolutionary about the form or specs of the new varicam. It looks liek ti will be a good work horse, and if the IQ is on par or better than Sony, than that gets me excited.

I like the Amira, but 2megapixal images have never been inspiring to me. 4K is a minimum resolution for me. Similar to the difference in 16mm and 35mm, I know 16 is good, but 35. And 70mm? so nice. But 8megapixels is a good reference point. Don't need more.

So, if we have a new 4k, mojo filled camera with a Varicam badge, that is exciting. And to that I would say, welcome back Panny.

But since I may not be using one anytime soon, I will stick to what I know. I will peak and dream from the side lines until another time.

My take on this...

Personally, there's not much that's that exciting/eye catching ON PAPER (the separable heads/recorder/umbilical is nice and has uses). And I say this as someone that likes Panasonic and has a lot invested in Panny. Of my four HD cameras, three are Panasonic VariCams(two P2). Of course I'm going to reserve final judgement until I actually see it and what it can do(hopefully they let us lay hands on it next month at NAB). But what I see as negatives about this camera and is keeping me from being excited about it:
1. No global shutter. At the price range it's going to probably sit, that's inexcusable(unless they have some incredible trick built-in). I shoot in situations where flash banding can present itself on a regular basis.
2. Fixed PL mount. Self explanatory.
3. HFR maxes out at 120fps on the s35 sensor.
4. CMOS chips in the 2/3" head. See #1.

I also think that the chilly reception on this forum IS indicative of THIS forum. I haven't been on this particular board long, but it appears that a large percentage of the users on here are, well let's just say, more price sensitive than someone that lives in the network TV or high-end production world. I'm an owner/operator and come from and live in the world where five figure camera(and lens) prices are the norm. I've seen people on here complain that $200 is too much for a slider or a Canon 7D is too expensive… If you're making "movies" with your friends or you shoot lower budget projects, yes, something like this is probably out of reach for you to own and is probably overkill, anyway. Well, maybe not 'out of reach' for some, but would be an un-wise purchase. It's also not something that someone that is shooting a lot of corporate talking head videos or weddings really needs. But if you're a working professional who has the client base and rates to justify it, buying/owning a camera thats $20k-$50K is just part of it.


*Disclaimer: I'm NOT dissing anyones talent/skills, etc based on what gear they can afford or their client base. There are 1,000's of talented shooters out there doing great things with just dslr's and no $. As they say, it's the magician...

 

[steve phillipps]

Good points Run&Gun.
Steve

 

[harddrive]

I am surprised at the lack of buzz about this camera since it was announced. The gh4 has 39 pages of comments, the varicam 11........... Is the lack of buzz indicative of where the industry has gone, is everyone these days more interested in 2-3000 dollar toys than tools like the varicam? Who else is considering the varicam as being a contender for their next camera?

I think a lot of any "lack of buzz" may be due to it not having been officially launched yet (let alone available) - there's just been a kind of drip, drip of little details. I'm not surprised - Panasonic had to let it be known they'd seen the light and changed direction, were going to play in the 4K/s35 game, and wanted to remain a serious force. Downside is that they lose the "wow" factor of an out of the blue product launch. I'd say wait until after NAB, let's see what happens there.

I also think that the camera market is going a similar way to aircraft and cars have gone in the past. (Can most people really tell the difference between an Airbus or Boeing when they see them in the sky nowadays? In the way it was possible to instantly tell planes apart a few decades ago?) Manufacturers put the numbers into the computer, all get similar figures, have access to similar tech, so cameras of a given type often have more similarities than differences nowadays. Roll back a decade or so and compare the Varicam with something similarly priced from Sony and you'd see a very different story, you'd be looking at two very different animals. For example, the Varicam would be 720 and progressive, the Sony 1080 and interlaced - one or the other. That would aim them at very different markets for starters. And line-up - fundamental "look" - would be far more baked in than today.

A very different story today, where all such tend to be format switchable, and their "look" is far more down to line up than intrinsic hardware. Go to something like s-log, and especially RAW, and that becomes even more true. Talking about things like a "Panasonic look" or a "Sony look" has far less relevance intrinsically - the look becomes far more down to line-up (or the way the RAW data gets processed) than manufacturer.

And my real feeling is that the acceptance of this new Varicam will stand or fall largely on the basis of it's price - and that may be the biggest unknown to get answered at NAB. I feel the Sony F55 is the closest yardstick here. The two have many similarities in headline features - the big question to be answered is how will the Varicam compare on price?

If - IF - it undercuts the F55 by a fair margin, then even allowing for the rolling versus global shutter, it's likely to do well. If it costs more than the F55, it's difficult to see the justification in buying such instead of the F55 - and that's become even more true with the F55 gaining the possibility of ProRes/DNxHD support. Let's wait for NAB and full details.

 

[ryaninoz]

I wouldn't be buying an f55 until we see this beast at NAB then. If it's priced higher than the f55 then I'd go for the 55 for it's global shutter and ability to mount other lenses than PL. As the poster above said a look is less baked in these days than the era of the varicam and HDCAM's.

 

[steve phillipps]

Bearing in mind that the Panasonic PX5000 is almost the same price as an F55 I really do get the feeling that anyone hoping for a similar price to the F55 for these new Varicams is in for a big shock! Hopefully I'll be proved wrong!
Steve

 

[vanvideo]

I expect these cameras to be in the mid-20 thousand range. That's about right for a broadcast/digital cinema camera. I came from the Beta SP days, where $50,000 cameras were the norm.
As someone stated earlier, those who work in the broadcast/ cinema world expect to pay more for the top gear. I delve in it enough to work with some fantastic gear. I just need more of that kind of work to justify a purchase!

 

[SJX]

Bearing in mind that the Panasonic PX5000 is almost the same price as an F55 I really do get the feeling that anyone hoping for a similar price to the F55 for these new Varicams is in for a big shock! Hopefully I'll be proved wrong!
Steve

It will depend if they intend to compete with Sony's flagship high end production camera, which is the F65 or with Sony's mid-tier C500 competitor, the F55. These are drastically different markets.

 

[harddrive]

It will depend if they intend to compete with Sony's flagship high end production camera, which is the F65 or with Sony's mid-tier C500 competitor, the F55. These are drastically different markets.

From the drip, drip specs so far released (admittedly incomplete) the new Varicam seems far more in line with the F55 than the F65. Like the F55 it is supposed to have a 8megapixel sensor - the F65 has one with double the photosites, hence "true" 4K resolution, not a 4K Bayer. Similar comparisons hold true in other areas.

So yes, I see it in the F55 market - not F65. (And nothing wrong with that.)

I also agree with vanvideo - from what we've heard so far, something around mid 20-thousand dollars mark for body only sounds reasonable. That figure is somewhat less than the F55 - but the Varicam doesn't have a rolling shutter.

 

[ryaninoz]

Panasonic can't price it in cinema territory because that market is Arri's. Producers get used to asking for the Alexa, it becomes part of a workflow, rental companies are built around it. The f55 has made inroads but if Panasonic is priced higher I just can't see it winning over the f55 market. I think it will be priced closer to the f5. After being out of the game for so long they need a shock and awe moment, 20 k for a camera and viewfinder will kill the c300 - 500 and f5 /55. Too high and the f55 seems a more logical purchase. Of course I could be completely off base and it could be 80 k in which case it won't be sitting on my shelf ! The comments by panasonic about making a 4k that is more useful for workflows to me indicate they have their market on high end corporate and commercial work and less on cinema.

 

[steve phillipps]

I think both of you are in for a bit of a shock! I reckon it's more likely $20,000 for the recorder and another $20,000 each for the heads. We'll see.
Steve