Emanuel
Cross-Examiner
:-D
Panasonic Varicam 35 & Varicam HS
- Thread starter dcloud
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I don't see it costing 65k, but it's highly comparable in many ways with the F55, not the F5. Biggest headline difference is that the F55 and Varicam both offer in-camera compressed coded recording of 4K - the F5 doesn't, it only gives a 4K RAW option with an extra recorder. For comparison, the body-only price of an F55 is currently slightly less than $29,000, and since that gives global shutter.....
.......exactly what I think. Given that the F55 is already established, I'd tend to say two "notches"combatentropy said:
, maybe even three if the Varicam option for RAW recording isn't as well integrated as on the F5/55. (At least the Varicam does seem to give a RAW output. It remains to be seen how it's going to be implemented.)I wonder........ I can't help thinking that if you're in the market for that sort of post flexibility, then are you not better off just shooting RAW? I haven't got the figures to hand, but I thought 4K compressed RAW was a very similar data rate to 12 bit 4:4:4 AVC-Ultra/XAVC?GaryT said:
I don't see it costing 65k, but it's highly comparable in many ways with the F55, not the F5. Biggest headline difference is that the F55 and Varicam both offer in-camera compressed coded recording of 4K - the F5 doesn't, it only gives a 4K RAW option with an extra recorder. For comparison, the body-only price of an F55 is currently slightly less than $29,000, and since that gives global shutter.....
.......exactly what I think. Given that the F55 is already established, I'd tend to say two "notches"
I wonder........ I can't help thinking that if you're in the market for that sort of post flexibility, then are you not better off just shooting RAW? I haven't got the figures to hand, but I thought 4K compressed RAW was a very similar data rate to 12 bit 4:4:4 AVC-Ultra/XAVC?
I am definitely not saying the Varicam 35 is a better camera than the F55 or even the F5. On principle it's hard to argue that a camera that's still being developed is better than one that's proving itself every day on the sets of shows like the "The Blacklist" and "The Big Bang Theory." KINOKS asked how this camera was better than the F5 and I simply pointed out that it's compressed codec appears to be superior.
Having said that that if Panasonic delivers a camera with a stellar image I think these codecs could help drive adoption of the cameras. Arri has already demonstrated that a beautiful image combined with an easy post workflow can be a winner with the Alexa and its 12 bit ProRes 444 codec. Many productions find that the ProRes is so good that it isn't worth the trouble to shoot raw with the Alexa.
If the Panasonic can deliver similar quality along with a NLE friendly 4K 4:4:4 codec they could have a winner. While Sony raw is compressed I think it's still 2.5 larger than Panasonic's AVC-ULTRA and the Sony raw still has to be debayered. All of this could translate into cost savings for Varicam 35 customers.
However I don't believe anything until I see it and I am currently lusting after the F55. Does anyone want to give me one?
Gary
There's some useful information gathered in one place about the F5/55 and data rates etc here - http://www.procam.tv/the-lowdown-f5-f55-f65
The one thing that's definite is that Sony 4K RAW after compression comes out to 1Gbs for 24p.
I believe AVC-Ultra datarates are very comparable to XAVC for equivalent quality (which is hardly surprising). That table doesn't list 4K 4:4:4 12 bit - but does give 4K 4:2:2 10 bit as 10Mb/frame - so 240Mbs for 24p. It seems reasonable that 4:4:4 12 bit will be 50% more due to the colour subsampling, and another 20% due to 12 bit - which would give 432Mbs?
I suppose it depends whether you see that as a sweet spot, or falling between the stools of 10 bit 4:2:2 and RAW. My gut feeling is that 10 bit 4:2:2 will be more than good enough for many people, and if you really have a need for more then going the whole way to RAW gives more versatility, but we'll see. Remember that as both the Varicam and the F55 are 4096x2160 Bayer sensors, the decoded outputs won't have full 4K luminance resolution, and the chroma resolution will be more corresponding to half 4K anyway - so what's the point of 4:4:4 recording?
I thought that was why the Sony F65 had the 4:4:4 mode, but the F55 didn't? It was because the chip of the F65 could do justice to it? (Scroll to the end of the procam link.)
My point was intended to primarily agree with you that it would appear that the Varicam does indeed offer more than the F5, but where we may differ is that I feel it's because it offers the capability to record a compressed coded signal at all - much less the 4:4:4 12 bit aspect.
Really, I've little doubt that the Varicam will indeed be very good, but whether it's a success or not is all going to depend on the price, isn't it? And because of the similarity to the F55 in so many ways, it's here the F55 has set the bar - $29,000 body only. That's what the Varicam has to come below to make significant sales.
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Panasonic have traditionally out specced and under priced their competitors. Remember the hvx200's specs and price compared to the sony hdv at the time. The hpx 500 and 300 series were both significantly cheaper than their competitors. So I think we are looking at a possible price to go head to head with the f5 i.e around 20 k which also puts it in the same ballpark as the epic. It's not in panasonics interest to price it too high, they need to get back into the game and a keen price will ensure that. Price it too high and they will not make much of a dent no matter how good a camera they have.
Plus there are already a few shows integrating F55s, and many others probably wouldn't have much trouble doing the same if the Varicam feel out of their range.
filmguy123
Veteran
So with all these Panny pre-NAB announcements, should we expect anything else? (Barry?) Or is this likely it for Panny this year?
Asking because I'm wondering if there will be a sub $10k version of the S35 Varicam
Asking because I'm wondering if there will be a sub $10k version of the S35 Varicam
pulpfiction007
Veteran
I think something like this is what we're hoping to see...(make it happen Panny!)
I think something like that has a high probability - but I doubt this year (all the effort has been put into developing the Varicam) and it's most likely to be s35 - not micro 4/3.
Think about it, to get exactly what you want means the development of a brand new video optimised 4/3 sensor. That's not likely when Panasonic can simply use the s35 Varicam sensor in a body without all the Varicam bells and whistles, and take advantage of economies of scale.
I strongly expect to see the Panasonic line going two ways, the "GH" route, using 4/3 sensors and lenses (as already shown by the GH4), and the "true video" route (as already seen with the 4K Varicam). Any "AF200" is far more likely to be a cheaper version of the latter, not the innards of a GH4 in a more video-centric body.
pulpfiction007
Veteran
Not sure I agree. Panasonic already has the body for a potential AF200 designed (add a tweak here or there to the 100) I don't think the cost to adjust the GH4 sensor would be higher than a new mount and newly designed body elements for an S35 sensor.
Also, I'm not sure Panasonic would want to offer that same S35 Varicam sensor for a budget price. They'd have to really cripple it to differentiate it from the more expensive camera. I mean, maybe they could do an F55/F5 C500/C300/C100 kind of thing....
Bassman2003
Veteran
I agree with Pulp. If you look at the GH4 and compare it to the specs of the s35 Varicam, it would be pretty hard to cripple a camera to fit in between. There just is not much room. I have no guess as to if Panasonic will bring out an AF-200. Watching videos of the guys at the Euro show talk about the "still" camera was pretty eye opening as to how much Panasonic the company is letting the consumer division run with the ball. They had all of the video lingo and specs that position the GH4 right at the pro video market. All the AF-200 represents is a better form factor and built in audio. If you cripple the AF-200 any little bit the GH4 will be a better choice and you have defeated your purpose. If you make an s35 sensor with equal GH4 specs it will be an option to the Varicam. The GH4 is making life difficult for the AF-200. It is what Canon would have had to deal with if they released the 5DMKIII with great(er) video, the C100 would be a tough sell.
Run&Gun
Veteran
I'm intrigued, but have some big concerns. No mention of Global Shutter(I would think IF it had it, it would be mentioned. Big selling point, IMO). s35 sensor frame rate tops out at 120fps. Double what I have on my current Vari's or C300, but low by todays standards. s35 appears to be PL mount only. I think manufactures have to go the Sony route and offer a "universal/swappable" mount design. I have $25k worth of Canon Cine primes that I added at the end of '13 and another $12k in already existing Canon still lenses. You can adapt PL glass to an EF mount camera, but it doesn't work the other way around. And the 2/3" head… I've never shot with a 3 chip 2/3" CMOS camera and it doesn't mention any thing about a global shutter on those chips, either. A lot of what I shoot with my current VariCam involves fast moving objects and movement and flashes from still photographers. We all know how great that kind of stuff looks on a CMOS without a global shutter… Dual camera heads is interesting, but I think a lot of us want a "ONE" camera that can do it all(like the F55). This is not one camera. I DO think, however, that this is going to probably be the best designed, shoulder mountable, large sensor camera to hit, SO FAR. Panny does know how to design an "ENG" camera. I've said for a long time that my perfect s35 cam would b my 2700 with a s35 sensor, swappable lens mounts and a new on-board LCD. My sales rep did say that they did not believe that the recorder was going to have slot-in wireless ability(boo), but would probably come with a factory A/B plate like most Panny's(yay). The umbilical/ability to separate the head and deck design (a la Alexa M) is also interesting and will be very useful in some situations.
I saw some say that they thought this would be a mostly rental only item. I would argue against that. At least for those of us on the network side of things. Renting isn't an option when you sometimes only have a few hours notice for shoots. And if you have the demand for a certain piece of gear to justify buying it. Hell I know guys that own their own Alexa's, RED's and F55's. Although one just recently got rid of his Alexa and bought a RED(he has that and an F55). I guess it really depends on you market, clients and workload. I prefer to shoot what I own and for most of my career, the cameras I have owned have covered what my clients wanted and needed.
BUT the million dollar question, so to speak, is price. That's gonna determine how this(these?) will be accepted. If it can't meet/(really)beat the F5 on price, what will people's motivation really be? Don't get me wrong, I love my Panasonic cameras(I have three VariCams) and have been expecting big things from them, but besides 4K(which none of my clients are currently asking for) and (somewhat) higher frame rates, there's not really anything overwhelming that the "new" VariCam will do that makes my current stable(VariCam's and C300) obsolete to me or my current clients. Hopefully they're holding back some info and will have an Apple/Steve Jobs "Oh, and one more thing" surprise to go with it at NAB.
I saw some say that they thought this would be a mostly rental only item. I would argue against that. At least for those of us on the network side of things. Renting isn't an option when you sometimes only have a few hours notice for shoots. And if you have the demand for a certain piece of gear to justify buying it. Hell I know guys that own their own Alexa's, RED's and F55's. Although one just recently got rid of his Alexa and bought a RED(he has that and an F55). I guess it really depends on you market, clients and workload. I prefer to shoot what I own and for most of my career, the cameras I have owned have covered what my clients wanted and needed.
BUT the million dollar question, so to speak, is price. That's gonna determine how this(these?) will be accepted. If it can't meet/(really)beat the F5 on price, what will people's motivation really be? Don't get me wrong, I love my Panasonic cameras(I have three VariCams) and have been expecting big things from them, but besides 4K(which none of my clients are currently asking for) and (somewhat) higher frame rates, there's not really anything overwhelming that the "new" VariCam will do that makes my current stable(VariCam's and C300) obsolete to me or my current clients. Hopefully they're holding back some info and will have an Apple/Steve Jobs "Oh, and one more thing" surprise to go with it at NAB.
filmguy123
Veteran
$8K Varicam! DO IT PANNY DO IT!
heh, thats one way to disrupt the market.
here's hoping its competing with the scarlet, price wise.
hscully
Veteran
I respectfully disagree. I think the differences between the GH4 and the Varicam are vast and there is plenty of room for a new AF200. It's more than form factor and audio, it's button accessible functionality, built in NDs, WFM, reasonable OLPF, interval recording, access to camera functions such as gamma detail, and color matrix in a truly flexible way. I think the GH4 is a great development for DSLR shooters but it's not a pro video camera. The Varicam is a top shelf broadcast, digital cinema camera that provides for a rich budget workflow with a deep range of recording formats. The feature set of the Varicam is so broad and the accessory and workflow peripherals could be made so different than an AF200, that an AF200, even in form factor, would not be a suitable replacement for a varicam.
My hope is that they bump a new AF200 up enough to use the s35 sensor and not plug in the m4/3 GH4 sensor.
Bassman2003
Veteran
I also agree with your points hscully, but I think what is difficult is the price implications put on a AF-200 class camera. I think it needs to be under $5,000 to be succesful. The new Varicam s35 is no doubt going to be a great camera. If they put that sensor in a lesser body they will be compelled to charge more than under $5,000
So I think it comes down to where Panasonic wants to sell the AF-200 and to whom. That really depends on how they price the Varicam which we might not even know this NAB since the release is not until fall.
So I think it comes down to where Panasonic wants to sell the AF-200 and to whom. That really depends on how they price the Varicam which we might not even know this NAB since the release is not until fall.
hscully
Veteran
Yeah... good point. the S35 AF200 would cause them problems for folks who want it to stay under $6K. It's kind of self centered of me to hope for a more expensive camera to replace the AF100 just because I want that s35 sensor 
It is a pretty big departure from Panasonic's niche for the AF100. If they want to stay at the same price point it would be unlikely that they would use that s35 sensor. I think you're right about that. They're not giving that away. If they bump it up to compete with the C300 (currently $14) and can bring it in closer to $10 - $12, that might work, but it's all just wishful thinking on my part. That's a big jump.
It is a pretty big departure from Panasonic's niche for the AF100. If they want to stay at the same price point it would be unlikely that they would use that s35 sensor. I think you're right about that. They're not giving that away. If they bump it up to compete with the C300 (currently $14) and can bring it in closer to $10 - $12, that might work, but it's all just wishful thinking on my part. That's a big jump.
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Bassman2003
Veteran
It is pretty complicated these days. The Varicam is everybody's guess as to what it will cost. So far, 4k has shown some real value priced offerings which is a surprise to me. I think this shows the manufacturer's view of the market being a little soft. The GH4 & BM 4k are making life pretty difficult for other cameras. If the downsampled 1080p from the GH4 is as expected, then this $1,500 camera will be compared to everything up to a C300. Yes, they are in different classes but the images might not be that far apart when it is all said and done.
I can't justify the Varicam in my business so I am rooting for an AF-200 that is not crippled.
I can't justify the Varicam in my business so I am rooting for an AF-200 that is not crippled.
hscully
Veteran
You and me both. I doubt I will be able to afford it for my business in the coming year either. I have an AF100 now and it's been really good so far. I have a GH2 also but can't get used to shooting with it. I much prefer the AF100. I was tempted to throw down on one of those 0% finance deals on the F5 but I chickened out and spent the dough rounding out lenses.
Just from the looks of that picture of the Varicam, that the EVF is going to be a lot of dough, as will the new media and workflow support stuff. It's a different infrastructure from the smaller cameras - ACES and all that. It's the same with the F55. The body is only the beginning.
However the MicroP2 developments have been really promising for smaller cameras as seen with the GH4.
Just from the looks of that picture of the Varicam, that the EVF is going to be a lot of dough, as will the new media and workflow support stuff. It's a different infrastructure from the smaller cameras - ACES and all that. It's the same with the F55. The body is only the beginning.
However the MicroP2 developments have been really promising for smaller cameras as seen with the GH4.