VARICAMS: Panasonic RAW - Varicam Pure vs. LT vs. EVA1 vs. S1H

[Zack Birlew]

Similar to my thread in the Sony F35/F65 forum, how do the different RAW modes compare between the Panasonic line? The EVA1 always looked cool as it had an infrared mode built in but then I learned the LT has it too in a way so looking at things you get 5.7K out of the EVA1 but only 4K with the LT and then an S1H isn't too bad of an option either so how do things compare with the Panasonic side of things when using RAW recording? Is the more exotic Varicam Pure RAW better than all the rest or are they all pretty similar? Also, anybody know if the Varicam 35 can output RAW to the Odyssey 7Q+ as well like the LT?

 

[CharlesPapert]

Not to be a party pooper, but after shooting with Varicams since 2016 (and owning an LT now), I have never needed to shoot RAW with them and likely never will.

 

[Spectra]

RAW output on the EVA1 is only 10 bit compared to 12 bit on the others...that would be slightly limiting for grading you would think.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Former Panasonic Cinema Product Manager here.

The RAW file structures are similar between the cameras but the sensors and their OPLFs are different. Well, the two VariCams are the same but the other two are different.

The VariCam Pure has the biggest, richest data files. 12-bit uncompressed RAW with the amazing VariCam sensor. The VariCam LT can do the same but not at all frame rates. The VariCam Pure can only output RAW to its matched Codex recorder back. The EVA1 is amazingly high resolving, which I find visible to the naked eye when you put its 5.7K footage reduced to 4K on a 4K monitor next to a native 4K camera such as the VariCam. The IR filter can be swung out of the way at the push of a button on the EVA1 while on the VariCam LT you have to gently stick some tools into the lens mount of the camera, so be super careful. You can't pull the IR on the VariCam Pure and I don't believe the S1H has the option either. The S1H and the EVA1 are not supported by the Odyssey7Q as they came after that product was done releasing firmware updates (I was the PM on that one as well). Nothing against the S1H, but there will always be a world of difference between the performance of a camera that costs a couple thousand dollars and one than costs 10x as much. This is the case with the VariCams.

 

[Zack Birlew]

Hmmm, that makes the choice between an EVA1 and VLT a little tougher, although the S1H with full frame and 6K still sounds interesting. I saw a shootout with the Varicam LT and Sony FX6 recently and it was surprising how cinematic it looked by comparison to the very video-looking FX6 and the FX6 is one of the most popular cameras out there so that's saying something. It's disappointing that Panasonic hasn't jumped into the 8K fight with an EVA2 or something, what a cool trick camera that would be! However, if they were going to do an 8K camera I would expect it to be in a Varicam first before an EVA2 and maybe even more than either of those by coming in the lower tier with an 8K Micro Four Thirds camera.

 

[CharlesPapert]

However, if they were going to do an 8K camera I would expect it to be in a Varicam first before an EVA2 and maybe even more than either of those by coming in the lower tier with an 8K Micro Four Thirds camera.

Wouldn't hold my breath on any of those except the M43 possibility. The cinema division sleeps with the fishes...

 

[NorBro]

In recent years, there has actually been a trend to get the most and best features in the $2K-$5K window since that's the most popular for the 99% of people in the world doing this, that's what sells the most.

With the big boy, big girl cameras, it's pretty much only down to ARRI - RED - SONY...and the rest have most likely all dropped out of selling anything above $10K-ish, anything super high-end. Meaning it's almost guaranteed you'd see 8K in a S1H2 and never in something like a EVA2 or Varicam LT2.

In general, it's getting more impossible to sell anything over $5K (saying this now a few years after the FX6) for the 99% when you have Sony selling something like the full-frame ZV-E1 (insanely good) for $2200 that is in many ways better than the FX6. Even Canon let loose and sells a $1300 R8 with full-frame, uncropped 4K/60p (there are only a handful of cameras in the world that offer this and this one is $1300, just crazy).

Resolution is cool and we needed more for a while, but AF and IBIS and DR and color and other cool features are higher on the list for pretty much everyone.

Panasonic's S5 II finally got phase detection and is a loaded, LOADED, camera for $1800. Only 4K/60p in only S35 kills it for some.

 

[DustinSchmidt]

Hmmm, that makes the choice between an EVA1 and VLT a little tougher, although the S1H with full frame and 6K still sounds interesting. I saw a shootout with the Varicam LT and Sony FX6 recently and it was surprising how cinematic it looked by comparison to the very video-looking FX6 and the FX6 is one of the most popular cameras out there so that's saying something. It's disappointing that Panasonic hasn't jumped into the 8K fight with an EVA2 or something, what a cool trick camera that would be! However, if they were going to do an 8K camera I would expect it to be in a Varicam first before an EVA2 and maybe even more than either of those by coming in the lower tier with an 8K Micro Four Thirds camera.

You can get a used Varicam for cheaper than an FX6 nowadays. Although it wouldn't seem they're truly comparable in terms of the type of work they do or are best suited for. Horses for courses.

 

[CharlesPapert]

You can get a used Varicam for cheaper than an FX6 nowadays.

It was as if an invisible axe swung a few months ago (hmmm, around the time the strikes began) and the average LT price suddenly dropped from high 6K to mid to low 5K. I'm holding on to mine, it's still a great camera that covers all of my needs for time being and not worth dumping for that little.

 

[Run&Gun]

It was as if an invisible axe swung a few months ago (hmmm, around the time the strikes began) and the average LT price suddenly dropped from high 6K to mid to low 5K. I'm holding on to mine, it's still a great camera that covers all of my needs for time being and not worth dumping for that little.

I’ve never sold a camera. I run them until they are “useless”(zero demand), at which point they are essentially worthless on the used market, and when they were still worth something, I was still using them and making way more money off of them still using them, than selling them(even if only occasionally). A perfect example is the second gen VariCam. I still use them like crazy. I picked up a third one a few months ago on eBay for $1,000 (This was a $40,000 camera when it was introduced in 2008). I made triple it’s purchase price on the first job I put it on(multi-cam, multi-day shoot).

And then, I’d rather keep them as mementos or “trophies”, as I’m kind of a sentimental guy, than sell them for what would amount to maybe a couple of good dinners, once demand has really fallen off. I still have both of my Betacam’s and my tape VariCam in my office. Pretty much all my other real cams, except the C300, are still working today, including the P2 Vari’s, the F55 and the Amira. So far in my career, I’ve had a pretty good knack at picking winners when it comes to cameras. Hopefully the streak continues… ; )

That was a long winded way of saying, “Yep, I completely agree with you Charles”.

 

[NorBro]

This just in...ALEXA 35 will no longer be accepted on all productions moving forward, effective immediately, because a worldwide executive decision has been made to go full-frame.

...you didn't get the 35, did you, Run&Gun?

 

[Run&Gun]

This just in...ALEXA 35 will no longer be accepted on all productions moving forward, effective immediately, because a worldwide executive decision has been made to go full-frame.

...you didn't get the 35, did you, Run&Gun?

Well, seven outta eight is still pretty good. Right?

 

[CharlesPapert]

That was a long winded way of saying, “Yep, I completely agree with you Charles.

The funny thing is that the LT is the first "legit" digital cine camera I've owned. I have to put digital in there because I did own a 35mm film camera, something called an SL Cine which was a lightweight Arri 2C conversion that was popular late 90's/early 2000's. But outside of that, have never owned a real production camera. I track that back to one day on set ten years ago when one of our Alexa (then Classics, I would guess) died. We got a replacement from the rental house and kept going. When I checked with our rep later as to what had happened, he said that the motherboard had failed, it was a $20K replacement. That put a chill into me and I sat out the notion of owning a camera, moving my focus to accessories and support. It also allowed me to keep good relationships with the rental houses, my gear sat at around 30% of the rental package and that was fine for both parties. I only bought the LT in 2020 because I had the opportunity to pay it off and then make rental on it within a single 5 month show, and the prices had come down enough to make it make sense. These days it mostly gets used for ZeeGee demos, but it's OK.

 

[NorBro]

Well, seven outta eight is still pretty good. Right?

lol :grin: :thumbsup:

 

[Run&Gun]

The funny thing is that the LT is the first "legit" digital cine camera I've owned. I have to put digital in there because I did own a 35mm film camera, something called an SL Cine which was a lightweight Arri 2C conversion that was popular late 90's/early 2000's. But outside of that, have never owned a real production camera. I track that back to one day on set ten years ago when one of our Alexa (then Classics, I would guess) died. We got a replacement from the rental house and kept going. When I checked with our rep later as to what had happened, he said that the motherboard had failed, it was a $20K replacement. That put a chill into me and I sat out the notion of owning a camera, moving my focus to accessories and support. It also allowed me to keep good relationships with the rental houses, my gear sat at around 30% of the rental package and that was fine for both parties. I only bought the LT in 2020 because I had the opportunity to pay it off and then make rental on it within a single 5 month show, and the prices had come down enough to make it make sense. These days it mostly gets used for ZeeGee demos, but it's OK.

Yeah, stuff like that happening is a very real possibility and honestly, something that none of us like to think about. I've been fortunate and haven't had to deal with anything that extreme, so far. I think I've probably spent more on repairs on lights and support gear than repairs on cameras. Not talking about maintenance, but outright "something gotten broken or blew-up/fried/died" repairs. I did have an A/D D/A audio board die in my F55 last year, but it was still pretty reasonable. I think they replaced the board plus the side screen and rotary encoder that both had seen much better days, and it was all only a few $K. I was kind of surprised. I still say the F55 is the most un-Sony thing that Sony has ever done.

Arri has their recertification/service contract program, that more or less acts like a warranty for cameras that are out of their original warranty period. Part of the cost covers having the sensor recalibrated and fully checking the camera over and making sure everything is still operating within spec. I believe the cost is around $2K/yr. I have it on my Amira. To me, that's pretty inexpensive for the piece of mind, knowing that if the sensor or other critical component would die, Arri would fix it, as if it were still under the original warranty.

But with some things, today, you would be better off(get out cheaper) just finding a used camera on eBay or the like and buying it vs. having the broken one repaired.

I'm still kind of disappointed that the third gen Vari's never caught on more than they did. Panasonic went from the 800 lb gorilla in the monkey house to "Who?" in what seems like a span of just a few years. Ever since the original Vari, they've made cameras that made beautiful images. Their management just dropped the ball. They tried to go after Arri and RED's market share and didn't fully realize what they were trying to get into(in my opinion). Talking to one of my good friends and sales reps, they seem more popular in churches, now, than anything else. But hey, I hope you get the working life out of yours that I've gotten out of my gen 2's. If someone can't produce good looking images with a camera made in the last decade or so, the problem isn't the camera. And I know you don't have that problem.

 

[Run&Gun]

In recent years, there has actually been a trend to get the most and best features in the $2K-$5K window since that's the most popular for the 99% of people in the world doing this, that's what sells the most.

With the big boy, big girl cameras, it's pretty much only down to ARRI - RED - SONY...and the rest have most likely all dropped out of selling anything above $10K-ish, anything super high-end. Meaning it's almost guaranteed you'd see 8K in a S1H2 and never in something like a EVA2 or Varicam LT2.

In general, it's getting more impossible to sell anything over $5K (saying this now a few years after the FX6) for the 99% when you have Sony selling something like the full-frame ZV-E1 (insanely good) for $2200 that is in many ways better than the FX6. Even Canon let loose and sells a $1300 R8 with full-frame, uncropped 4K/60p (there are only a handful of cameras in the world that offer this and this one is $1300, just crazy).

Resolution is cool and we needed more for a while, but AF and IBIS and DR and color and other cool features are higher on the list for pretty much everyone.

Panasonic's S5 II finally got phase detection and is a loaded, LOADED, camera for $1800. Only 4K/60p in only S35 kills it for some.

Yeah, we're past the point of diminishing returns on resolution. When we went from 480i 4:3 to 720p/1080i/p, it was literally the quintessential night and day difference that anyone could see, not just videophiles and people in the industry. But now, HD to UHD/4K to 8K, etc. are much more subtle. Like the differences between 3:07pm and 4:22pm. Most people can't tell the difference unless they're standing just a few feet in front of a screen. There are other much more important, valuable aspects to the image and camera.

 

[NorBro]

I'm still kind of disappointed that the third gen Vari's never caught on more than they did. Panasonic went from the 800 lb gorilla in the monkey house to "Who?" in what seems like a span of just a few years. Ever since the original Vari, they've made cameras that made beautiful images. Their management just dropped the ball. They tried to go after Arri and RED's market share and didn't fully realize what they were trying to get into(in my opinion). Talking to one of my good friends and sales reps, they seem more popular in churches, now, than anything else. But hey, I hope you get the working life out of yours that I've gotten out of my gen 2's. If someone can't produce good looking images with a camera made in the last decade or so, the problem isn't the camera. And I know you don't have that problem.

I think they did try to go after the higher-end, just like Canon (they both failed), but I also thought this camera was kind of a late-to-the-party F55 alternative, maybe even a C500 competitor.

In short, not only did the rapidly changing industry and the so-called cartel put Panasonic in a difficult position, but they also had the worst marketing (IMO), and at times it's like they didn't know what to do anymore besides make MFT cameras.

I know in the management's mind they have this camera that's half the price of an Alexa and it's nice-looking, but it was still a $20K-ish package with expensive media that had to compete with cameras like the RED Raven (which a fully-working package could be had for about $12K at the time) and other options like the Canon C200 which came out a year after the LT (even less money).

Eventually once the FX9 and C300 Mark III equalized the flagship shelf the LT dropped to $11K like the aforementioned (no coincidence), but it was tragically too late.

IF the LT was announced at $9,999 or something similar in 2016, I think we would be talking about the LT2 right now (because they would have had more success and possibly continued to make more cinema cameras).

___

With all of that said, I actually have a Panasonic S5 IIX in my hands right now and it has one of the nicest images from any camera I've ever seen. It is a mini-Varicam as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Run&Gun]

I think they did try to go after the higher-end, just like Canon (they both failed), but I also thought this camera was kind of a late-to-the-party F55 alternative, maybe even a C500 competitor.

In short, not only did the rapidly changing industry and the so-called cartel put Panasonic in a difficult position, but they also had the worst marketing (IMO), and at times it's like they didn't know what to do anymore besides make MFT cameras.

I know in the management's mind they have this camera that's half the price of an Alexa and it's nice-looking, but it was still a $20K-ish package with expensive media that had to compete with cameras like the RED Raven (which a fully-working package could be had for about $12K at the time) and other options like the Canon C200 which came out a year after the LT (even less money).

Eventually once the FX9 and C300 Mark III equalized the flagship shelf the LT dropped to $11K like the aforementioned (no coincidence), but it was tragically too late.

IF the LT was announced at $9,999 or something similar in 2016, I think we would be talking about the LT2 right now (because they would have had more success and possibly continued to make more cinema cameras).

___

With all of that said, I actually have a Panasonic S5 IIX in my hands right now and it has one of the nicest images from any camera I've ever seen. It is a mini-Varicam as far as I'm concerned.

Yep. I was at NAB 2014 when Panasonic dropped the VariCam 35. I remember sitting on the dolly messing with it and one of the Panasonic reps came up and was sort of an @$$hole to me. Looking at my history with Panasonic, I'm one of the people that he should have been courting, but they no longer cared about the owner-op and were reaching for that brass ring. And fell out of the saddle and onto their face. The camera was overpriced(although they were being sold to rental houses for around half or a little more) and late to the party, despite what it could actually do. Funny enough, though, the LT was already on its way. My rep told me almost immediately after the V35, that "something else" is coming aimed at the owner-op. But again, I think it was just too late. If it had been released alongside of the V35, I think it would have gained more traction. But by that point, the F55 and Amira were already entrenched, along with RED with all of the "cool kids" and "hip producers", and the LT diverged too far from the previous gens DNA and philosophy, IMO. Despite not being just a box that you had to completely build-up, I never liked the physical design of the LT. If the ergonomics and design had been better, I might have taken a chance on it, when Panasonic cut the prices to the bone. But maybe not. The F55 was still in its heyday and in-demand. You didn't have to sell it. Again, nothing against the actual performance and capabilities of the camera, it just wasn't wanted in the world that it's predecessors ruled.

Panasonic's organic sensor was looking very promising, but I haven't heard anything about it in a very long time. I'm not sure if we will ever see a new big boy "cine" cam from them, again. It's been nine years for the 35 and seven for the LT. And the LT and EVA-1 are both special order only at B&H, now. But at this point, I've pretty much made my bed in the house of Arri. And my F55 will still probably carry me a few more years, at least for "Sony" jobs, and as long as they last, my P2 Vari's for the broadcast world*.

*15 years old, native 720p and still holding their own on network TV. Definitely reinforces that resolution is not everything.

 

[NorBro]

Yeah, and I didn't even mention the regular VariCam 35 because that one just seemed like such a unicorn.

You heard about it but I swear I felt like it was only a demo camera for events/booths, ha.

 

[Run&Gun]

Yeah, and I didn't even mention the regular VariCam 35 because that one just seemed like such a unicorn.

You heard about it but I swear I felt like it was only a demo camera for events/booths, ha.

Netflix Originals seems like the only place I really noticed them. I know that wasn't it, but it seems like that was the feather in their cap.