On camera mike "final" selection

L

leopoldo

Member
I need help to make before buying decision among these wonderful mikes:
Sennheiser MKH 416, Sennheiser MKH 60, Sanken CS-1, Sanken CS-3e
Neumann KMR 81i.
I understud that none of you guys will ever buy the MS stereo mike like Sennheiser 418-S or Sanken CS-5 ...(am I right?).
I will record mainly documentaries of construction sites, both exterior and interior.
It will make a lot better if I add to my gear also the Sound Devices 302? (Please consider that I will be shooting by myself).
Thank you to all of you!
leopoldo
 
Re: On camera mike "final" selection

i really dont see any difference if all of them siting on the camera , if you are planning use it in steady situations on the boom ( dont know how exactly sinse you are working alon-), the cs-3 is the way to go becoue the noise on your sets , 302 is not worth alot if you are planing use it only for taking one person interview, just add sd m-1 pre for benefit of hi pass filter
and eassy to calibrate the level ( you might skipp on that as well since the mike have lo cut -a little bit high point 150hz but its works )
if you are planning follow someone on costraction site and insert some human touch :-) good wierles mike would be benefit to shoot and have so sound bites from the distance
the cs -5 is a wonderfull tool - i used it few times for street musik recording , it have mono capability but not as good regection as the cs-3
in some way i see its over kill -never worked with 418 so cant advise .
might bee that se-300 with figur of 8 would give you same results to take stereophonic ambient -you have to find way to place bouth of them on the same suspention , a little bit tricky if you need good wind isolation
the neumann is more sencitive to humidity thaen the other mikes

i ones did interwiu inside a barel that was hooked on the constraction site crane that was pritty amaizing to fly around in 200 feet hight
spend a little more on insurence :-)
 
Re: On camera mike "final" selection

Get the CS3e.

You may find that it's almost the only mic you'll need.

I've been told that the 416 won't do interiors and so far that's dead wrong. It does 'em as good as my BEST hyper-cardioid. The CS3e has even LESS of a tail so it should do interiors FINE... that said I've read in a couple places that people say the 416 is nearly OMNI in the lows and that's a bunch of crap... but the CS3e is measureably 5-8db even LESS rear tail... so it make the 416's small tail completely dissappear.

Lately I'm finding a lot of use for a long shotgun on-cam. Today I rigged a bracket to hold a REALLY long gun (ck69 LONG) running down the side of my cam... I had to do a lot of movement with the cam and booming was absolutely OUT of the question... and as a "1-man band" it usually is.

Anyway... the LONG gun on cam worked GREAT. Doesn't seem like it should does it? Well it does.
 
Re: On camera mike "final" selection

Thank you guys for your experienced advices.
I think I am going to get the cs-3e as mike and, for now, wait for the 302 mixer.
Oleg, could you tell me, please, in which cases it is better the use of cs-5 stereo?
I understad is not good for real live music, because any shotgun has some coloring; it is not good for real dialog, because the voice is not stereo....so, other than street music and other street noice, where should it be used ?
I tought it could be an eccelent tool together with the 302 mixer!

I have to say that this forum is the best thing that came with the DVX100A. Thank again to all of you.
leopoldo
 
Re: On camera mike "final" selection

The CS3e is PERFECT for dialog... Dialog is mono 99% of the time... even in Hollywood.

The CS3e was MADE for dialog. You'll find that it's quite adequate for a lot more then that.

Starting "at the top" with your first microphone is going to have you spoiled. You'll be surprised at what's possible with a good mic.

Just get it and try to find out what it CAN'T do... we'll hear from you in a month when you finally find something.

Don't worry about the CS-5 right now... OLEG please answer his question... but realize that FOR YOU the answer doesn't really even matter. You WILL find something that you wish the CS3e did better... and then you'll start looking for another possible mic to throw in the bag... that's the nature of the beast... I'm sure the CS-5 is making somebody really happy for some use or another.

All I know is when you have a particular challenge come up and you have JUST THE THING to handle it... that's a good feeling.
 
Re: On camera mike "final" selection

the cs-5 was used mostly for ambient , sound fx , juzz street conserts ,classical music qortets and other events to rich the sound , the benefit with the mike that i could do some booming above with out carry another one , you can full the mike by not connecting the right input to the phantom power and get the mid channel alone ( but then there is no big difference between that and put it in mono , less low friqentcy rumble ) , the same trick doesnt work with 418 as i heard and you need to suply phantom to both channels even you need only the midle .
sanken desihgned this mike for bennefit of stereo image when the mono capability is a benifit , you other hand need much more side regection when you intervieu people
the problem with stereo mike on the camera ,that if you planning motion or drasticly camera moovement you got drastical change on sound which in the end only disterb , the stereo image have to be set presisly what imposible on camera mount ( or you shoot postcards only :-))
if you ae planning to stereo ambient you can alwais run separate rig or mike for this perpes complitly independble from your main shooting and add it in the editing room , since you are going to work in very lowd situations even the sony 957 or shure vp- 88 (that one i like very much , its little bit noisy but who cares when you recording traffic , traktors , drils and other craftworks on the constraction site)
make you some structure of working , in the end of each scene or siqwence that took place on other part of the location just run 2-3 minuts of tipical ambient for futer laering in editing room
 
Re: On camera mike "final" selection

[quote author=Matt in STL link=board=audio;num=1094313161;start=0#4 date=09/05/04 at 22:55:55]The CS3e is PERFECT for dialog... Dialog is mono 99% of the time... even in Hollywood.

The CS3e was MADE for dialog. You'll find that it's quite adequate for a lot more then that.

Starting "at the top" with your first microphone is going to have you spoiled. You'll be surprised at what's possible with a good mic.

Just get it and try to find out what it CAN'T do... we'll hear from you in a month when you finally find something.

Don't worry about the CS-5 right now... OLEG please answer his question... but realize that FOR YOU the answer doesn't really even matter. You WILL find something that you wish the CS3e did better... and then you'll start looking for another possible mic to throw in the bag... that's the nature of the beast... I'm sure the CS-5 is making somebody really happy for some use or another.

All I know is when you have a particular challenge come up and you have JUST THE THING to handle it... that's a good feeling.[/quote]

Hey Matt, how 'bout a demo on that thar CS3e? ;)
 
Re: On camera mike "final" selection

The next time I get my hands on one I'll be sure to do a demo for you.

For now it would be damn helpful for somebody on this board who owns some of these other mics... cough, ahem... to perhaps send me one that I can post.

If I told you how much I make per year you'd laugh your ass off... because my income vs. what I spend on sound gear really is funny.

I just bought an AKG modular system including the ck69 dual shotgun... so I'm tapped out at the moment.

I expect a CS3e to be my next mic though.

If you just want to hear what one sounds like CLICK HERE.

For a different voice on this mic CLICK HERE.

The first clip, Bryan Beasleigh, can inadvertantly make a mic sound like gold just because he has such a rich voice.

Just so you can hear somewhat of a comparison CLICK HERE to hear Glenn Trew through a 416.

I didn't actually use this as a basis for choosing the 416 over the CS3e... but so far I actually like the sound of the 416 the best... the thing is though... that I don't really prefer it's sound as much as I used to. In practical use you FIRST want audio that's as CLEAN as possible and THEN you can get picky about a mic's character. The CS3e will DEFINITELY be affected the least by unwanted sounds... and that's why I think it's the better choice.

I'm in a weird position with my 416... I could sell it at a reasonable loss and still get the CS3e... but I did pick the 416 because I like the sound... and it's got virtually NO handling noise and I really like that. I mean you don't even have to be careful with it. You can actually use it handheld with no problems... most other shotguns I've used are ULTRA sensitive to handling noise... so I sometimes use my 416 as an interview mic and keep it totally below the frame... it works great for that... and there's other things I like about the 416 too... so there's my conundrum... and that's also why I recommend the CS3e first... but I still love the 416.
 
Re: On camera mike "final" selection

How You guys consider the Sennheiser MKH 60 versus the Sanken CS-3e?
Between the two, should I have no doubt in getting the CS-3e?
Could you please also suggest the appropriate camera mount for the CS-3e and the wind protection which could work the best for in & out-door.
I cannot get in touch with "Coffey Sound"...the website does not open and the e-mail I sent came right back ... anybody has their phone number?
 
Re: On camera mike "final" selection

I like the sound of the mkh60 better... but I'd still get the CS3e. It's not like I like the sound of the Sennheiser THAT much better... just better. When you're in the process of shooting all you do is listen for intelligibility and overall pickup vs rejection of unwanted sounds.

When I sit in my house or in a controlled environment I get stupidly picky about which mic I like the sound of best... and I usually end up choosing a mic THAT way. Looking back on it I don't know if that's so smart... re-read my opening paragraph right here. When the heat is on all you REALLY want to be sure of is that you're getting the sound you NEED to get and NOT hearing the sounds you DON'T want. That's where the CS3e really shines.

For windprotection get a Softie for $132 from Trew Audio and the K-Tek KSSM ($109) with SOFT rubber for the mount... a couple people will probably tell you that you need the full sized K-Tek mount for the CS3e and that the KSSM is only for the CS1... DON'T BELIEVE IT... I use the KSSM with my 416 and it works GREAT... Tell the guys at Trew that you want to pop the mount into your hotshoe and they'll hook you up for a few extra bucks. The mount system screws in for hotshoe and out again for the end of your boom pole. Couldn't be simpler.
 
Hello Matin,

First let me thank you for all of the great knowlede that you have shared. I'm planing on purchasing a shotgun mic in the very near future. I mainly shoot wedding videos with camera mounted shure ksm 141's. They don't do a god job but I guess I did noy buy them for this purpose.

I need a camera mountable mic that will perform well in church's and also give me wind protection when traveling out doors to do interviews.

You seem to be a big fan of the CS3e. Given what I have told you do you think this mic would be a good choice for me? Also will it mount in the DVX's mic holder since I like to use my hot shoe for an on camera light???

Could you also make a few reconmendations for some slightly cheaper on camera mics for my second camera in the same situations.


thanks so much for your time

mike
 
Lately I'm finding a lot of use for a long shotgun on-cam. Today I rigged a bracket to hold a REALLY long gun (ck69 LONG) running down the side of my cam... I had to do a lot of movement with the cam and booming was absolutely OUT of the question... and as a "1-man band" it usually is.

Anyway... the LONG gun on cam worked GREAT. Doesn't seem like it should does it? Well it does.[/QUOTE]

I also do not go along with the conventional wisdom that a mic mounted on a camera
is almost useless. My HVX came with a shockmount that insulates the mic somewhat.
Add to that the fact that the HVX is silent when in P2 mode, so no camera noise. I find that when shooting outside, 2 or 3 feet away from the subject, with my Sony C-74 shotgun (an expensive 90's ENG mic), the sound is excellent. At least to my ears.
 
i'm surprised nobody mentioned the sanken cs-1...

it is one of the few mics i haven't even seen in person much less tried out, but i am pretty sure that it is marketed as a short shotgun specifically to put on top of a camera ala ENG work?

i love my cs3e and its a great mic but i'd be tempted to try out the cs-1 if i were going to need to pick a dedicated on-camera-mic.

right now i'm pretty damn happy with my stable of microphones...i'm focusing more on lavalier placement tricks, getting some lav's into my arsenal besides the cos-11's, and perhaps switching over to a "real" cart and god forbid a board mixer.

but the board mixer is only because i was able to spend a day with with a Hollywood "A List" mixer and he had the most beautiful Yamaha mixer that was way more than a mixer.

from the look/features of it i ASSumed it would be $20k-$30k but when it looked it up it was only $2k and actually less because of the M.A.P. crap.

i just have to decide if i want to go at it right and add a bigger power supply to cart and perhaps run something like metacorder as a backup recorder to my 744t.

although i just know that Sound Devices is going to come out with some new stuff that will blow us away!

i don't have any inside info but they added a few very bright engineering types and i think they are going to come out with a new mixer and perhaps a new recorder.

someone there told me that when they designed the 442 they had no plans whatsoever to get into the recorder industry.

they also said that they had a lot of things in development right now.

i love my sd 442->sd 744t but i really wish i could more easily record all four input channels on the 442 to the 744t without having to leave the faders at unity/0 and work off of the tiny gain knobs!

matthew
 
i'm also waiting for the next sound devices release before i make any rash moves - i'm imagining a digital mixer, along the lines of the sony p-01, but GOOD, not useless. I'm also imagining a digital link to a recorder.

I'm HOPING for some other cool stuff on there a la the inventive PSC features that have been going into their mixers. For a starter, why the heck are we using AA battery technology in our mixers? sheesh. The 700 series from SD got it right with those easily available camera batteries.

Any other idea's that people would like to see in a new SD mixer? maybe this is the wrong thread.
 
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