Ok I am pulling my hair out...PLEASE HELP

B

BigWilly1231

Active member
So I really cant figure out which set up to buy, should I buy a shotgun, a cartioid, hyper cartioid >:(....I need some suggestions and some good help, I have posted here many times about this subject just keep getting different results thus getting me even more confused ???....So options AT 897 the mk012, the NRG SA-568, or should I go with one shotgun one hyper, or is this an overkill please give me some thoughts.

I am going to shot shorts mainly, but I want good sounding audio inside and outside, not to mention a nice room tone to come along with it....Once again I am shooting personally funded independent shorts, maybe soon a feature, and I need a mic set up, please suggest something I can use and be happy with.....Even if it is not something on my list

Thanks again ;D
 
Re: Ok I am pulling my hair out...PLEASE HELP

Hi BigWilly,
my recommendation for you would be an AKG-based kit, consisting of a C480B power supply/preamp,
a CK-63 B Hypercardiodid capsule and a CK-69 shotgun (with medium/long barrel).
The two mic capsules come with foam windscreens that will work ok indoors, for outoors a zeppelin
or at least a Rycote softie are required. I use this combo for some months now, the AGK stuff sounds
pretty good and I had no problems with it yet. Price tag (without zeppelin/softie) is around 1.000 bucks.
 
Re: Ok I am pulling my hair out...PLEASE HELP

ok, bigwilly, you could keep posting here, and keep getting different responses and never make up your mind. what sounds good to one guy, might sound like shyte to another.

what we will all agree on, however, is that you need to acquire your audio as clean as possible, then you can post process it however you want.

your indecision is based on wanting everything from one mic. and you will never get everything from one mic.

If you want a mic for DIALOGUE CAPTURE, you will get the most out of a shotgun. under $500 shotguns will do the trick, but you get what you pay for. a $1500 shotgun will be better than a $500 shotgun for instance. a long form shotgun will give you the most versatility - it will be good outdoors and indoors. A short form shotgun may fail you outdoors as you need to get the mic (in many cases) further from the source. So really, none of the mics you have listed will give you what you want 100% of the time. although the NRG SA-568 you have listed seems to claim it will (i have never used this mic, but a mic that cheap can't possibly acheive quality results... but you never know...).

my recomendation is to go with the audiotechnica at815b if you only have the $$ to get one mic.

if you have more $$ to spend, get the akg ck69 - it is both long and short form, therefore being more versatile and it sounds fantastic.

but also, make sure you get a modular suspension system, windshield and windjammer. see link:
http://www.rycote.com/products/windshield/default.htm

without these items, your shotgun will not give you the results it is capable of - you will have additional handling noise, wind noise etc. that you don't want.

i could easily go on, and confuse you even more with discussion over more audio gear, but i will leave it at this, based on the $$ i believe you wish to spend and the fact that you want a mic for dialogue capture for films.

just remember, to a certain extent, you will get what you pay for with audio gear - a super cheap mic, will more than likely, be super cheap sounding.
 
Re: Ok I am pulling my hair out...PLEASE HELP

This is one of the things I struggle with as well. There's no doubt that you get what you pay for in audio. The real question for me is always about what is "good enough". Like Big Willy, I'm not a pro. I shoot and write shorts that I pay for out of my own pocket. I haven't been able to find a sound guy with his own gear who's willing to work for food. So I try and learn what I can, and try to determine if that extra 200 bucks for a better mic is going to make more of a difference than a better tripod, or a few extra lights, because that 200 bucks is all I've got to spend on gear. Unless of course I want to be sleeping in the garage. I can't go to my wife and say "buying this new mic is going to save me on my next production". She's supportive, but not stupid. I don't mind spending the money (in fact, it's kind of fun) but it can be very difficult to decide what's most important, especially with something that you don't really understand that much. And for me audio is the trickiest part of this mix. I've been a musician most of my life, and I generally found that bad audio is obvious, but good audio is more subjective.
But I guess that's one more thing to learn about moviemaking. You have to prioritize.
 
Re: Ok I am pulling my hair out...PLEASE HELP

well put, jim. i respect everything you said.

i do proaudio for a living and believe me, it took a looooong time for me to get gear that i am happy with. lots of trial and major errors!

btw, i get calls all the time from indie filmmakers to do audio for them because nobody but me in my area has a pro audio rig (my film audio rig cost twice what my dvx100a did!). and i never get paid! but i love it, so i do it for spec. although i have to say, if the script blows or is too amateur, then i have to pass on the project.

i do have to say (vent) however, that one thing that ALWAYS shocks me, is how everyone is willing to put serious $$ into camera, lights, computer, but NEVER audio. WTF?! it shocks me every time. and then everyone complains about not having good sound because all they get is a $300 shotgun and a painter's pole from home depot.

grr... vent vent vent ;D
 
Re: Ok I am pulling my hair out...PLEASE HELP

Yea, it's not usually at the top of the list for somebody just starting out. But I think after a few shoots you start to learn the lesson that audio is at least as important as the video.

I don't even use a painters pole. On my last shoot I stuck a boom arm from a vocal mic inside a PVC pipe and wrapped it in gaffers tape. Which brings me to a question about booms and suspension systems. I get the idea that good booms are light, and that some of them you can plug the mic into one end and the cable into the other, which should cut down on the cable noise. But otherwise, why is it different than say, a painters pole? The same thing for isolating the mic. I took a harp from inside a lampshade, and attached it to a regular mic holder, which I then screwed onto the aforementioned boom. I used rubber bands to suspend the mic inside the harp to isolate it. I taped the cable to the PVC pipe. This set up provided me with a noise free signal. What is better about a pro rig? I'm not being facetious, I really want to know. I'm sure there's a lot of things, but I don't know what they are.
 
Re: Ok I am pulling my hair out...PLEASE HELP

a pvc pipe and home made suspension system with rubber bands i'm thinking would probably yield you close results to what you'd get from a "proper" system. although i'd probably be a bit embarrased to go out in public with it and expect people to take me serously!  :o   just imagining what it looks like makes me smile!
to give you a musical comparison, it'd be like using wooden spoons instead of drum sticks. What's better about drum sticks than wooden spoons? the drums sound pretty much the same when i whack em with either!

keep in mind, that a lot of engineering has gone into the design and manufactur of the likes of Rycote's products. they are robust, light weight and have very low handling noise.

a carbon fiber boom pole is very light weight and most have grips or "handles" that absorb a lot of handling noise. although,  if you are rough with them, due to inexperience, you'll get plently of handling noise. handling a boom properly and accurately is kind of like learning to use a steadicam well. it takes some practice.
 
Re: Ok I am pulling my hair out...PLEASE HELP

Good to know. There are probably little things about a pro rig that I would only appreciate after using one. I do respect the time and energy that goes into designing this stuff.

My set-up does look a little ridiculous, which is why I'm thinking of upgrading to that painters pole ;)

I may be shooting a commercial next month. For that I have a guy lined up with better gear. I don't think I have the stones to show up at a paying gig with the rig I have now.
 
Re: Ok I am pulling my hair out...PLEASE HELP

you should show up with your home made rig and film the client's reaction candid camera style! then pull out the proper one. SURPRISE!
that would be funny. or cruel...
either way, it'd make good tv.
:P
 
Re: Ok I am pulling my hair out...PLEASE HELP

I'm just as amazed that many folks don't have a software setup (at least) for doing post. I don't mean to say that someone has to have a full protools rig, but heck Nuendo or Logic or even SX or SoundForge can handle all of your needs (I like SX and Nuendo but I also use Logic from time to time. A good audio app with a nice set of Waves pluggs, some decent monitors and you're well on your way. I don't care how well the audio was captured, I can't think of a single instance where I didn't spend hours on it in post. Granted I came to video through music but still, to my way of thinking audio is more than half the equation. I just finished doing the post on a five minute short I shot (my first one as a "filmmaker") and there was no dialog and I still spent two solid hours editing the waveform. And I may go back and do more later.

Matt
 
Re: Ok I am pulling my hair out...PLEASE HELP

Neil... I agree with everything you said up there. I still think there are a few audio bargains that should be considered for a guy on a budget. I've got a lot of friends online who own Schoeps mk41s AND Oktavas... I've got 2 different $1K shotguns, but I still use the Oktavas on occasion.

Regarding your point about people who ***** about sound quality but didn't spend anything to improve it. I agree 100% on that. In the last 3 years I've bought about $8500 in sound gear... but realistically, it does have to START somewhere. Hopefully BigWilly can get an interest brewing on a budget... then the rest will take care of itself! The way an interest in audio grows is by attempting to get a great sound and then, in some odd situation... you fail... then take inventory and realise that unfortunately MONEY could have prevented the failure! That's how I got a couple Lectro sets... and better shotguns... and well, everything else.
 
Re: Ok I am pulling my hair out...PLEASE HELP

Professional support gear also won't fail on you and make you drop an over 1K shotguns on the ground. And windshield systems such as Rycote, that works with an air bubble outside of the mic, will cut down wind noise to zero, in many instances where your common sense would ask you to cut.

I agree that post is important, and editing sound is a talent I will never have. That's another reason to get someone who knows what they're doing. But in the spirit of the Indy on those boards who wish to learn by doing, I can say there are a lot of options of good enough audio gear that fall in a budget, with strenghts and weaknesses. The real trick of doing low budget stuff is that you have to write to what you have, that in terms of locations, actors, and equipment.

BTW, a very good investiment on audio that won't set nobody back on budget is Dan Brockett's book on audio for DV.
 
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