Oft-sought camera not announced again

C

combatentropy

Veteran
Another NAB, and again this camera was not announced, even though technically possible for some time:

[TABLE="width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD]hope.jpg[/TD]
[TD]handicam style
4K
S35
µ43 lens mount
global shutter
12+ stops
time lapse - 120 fps
10-bit 4:2:2
SD or CF cards
dual XLR[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Breakdown:

handicam style: More comfortable than an SLR yet more flexible than a shoulder rig. Furthermore, unlike a shoulder rig, the ergonomics of this style are a delicate balance. A few extra inches and a few extra pounds can ruin it (I'm looking at you, AF100 and FS700). Needs to be about the size of a Sony NEX VG900.
4K: because, I give up, and it makes for some pretty sweet 2K
S35: the sweet spot. You feel like Roger Deakins, yet you use grandpa's lenses.
µ43: There are adapters for the mount you really want: EF, F, PL. Or just screw on an actual Four Thirds lens and (insert math here) the S35 4K sensor becomes a 4/3 3K sensor. Or put on a C mount adapter and (insert math here) it becomes an S16 2K sensor.
global shutter: because motion purity is as important as 4K (more so, actually)
12+ stops: smooth tones are as important as 4K (more so, actually)
120 fps: the more the merrier
10-bit 4:2:2: without specifying a codec, let's just say, gradable, visually lossless, easy on the editing system. It may be Prores, it may be MJPEG now that JPEG supports 10 bits, it may be CinemaDNG, given that it allows JPEG compression and like I said JPEG now can do 10 bits. Needs to be loggish gamma, though, to take full advantage of bits.
SD or CF cards: fast, cheap, ubiquitous, pick all three. Now if your codec is something like Prores, it'll probably have to be CF, because 120 fps would be about 110 MB/sec. If you want to use SD cards, you'll have to use one of the newer codecs like H.264 or H.265, with the corresponding hit in editor-friendliness.
dual XLR. Because we aren't doing silent movies, and we aren't using $5 mics from Radio Shack.


Added bonii:

- neutral density filters
- 1920x1080 5" OLED flip-out screen - because my $500 smartphone already has it
- Sony L series battery mount - small, cheap, ubiquitous, pick all three
- detachable handle - for when we're willing to shoot MOS for added stealth (or just to pack easier).
- USB 3.1 - not quite out yet, but it will be before you get your cam done. The size of MicroUSB, but goes in either way, and carries up to 100 W of power. No other power jack required.
- minimalist - hard to describe. Like a Leica, or a MacBook, or a beautiful knife, not a fancy food processor. Capisce?


Price:

$5,000 (+/- $2,000)

because you can

and if you do this, you will sell so many of these, because people will be buying it instead of the DSLRs, the Cx00's, the Arri's, the F55's, etc. (dependent upon build quality, polish, and overall design and workmanship)
 
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So... Basically an F55
, shrunk down with less DR and raw but added bonus features.... Not sure how you come to a $5k figure really.

It might be possible, but that rarely is a reason to do something for a big corporation.
 
It won't be done by a big name because it will destroy sales of the other cameras by the same manufacturer. Only those who don't have dedicated video cameras would possible even consider it.
 
jaybirch said:
So... Basically an F55
, shrunk down with less DR and raw but added bonus features.... Not sure how you come to a $5k figure really.

It might be possible, but that rarely is a reason to do something for a big corporation.
Click to expand...

No, not an F55. The F55 is a top of the line TV Broadcast and Digital Cinema camera that they shoot Broadcast TV shows like the Black List on and costs lots of money and is capable in ways... nevermind. It's more like a Panasonic PX270 without the lens, he's talking about, as Barry said in another thread which sells for under $6K. It is a completely accurate description of the camera we've all been pretty much begging for on this forum. That Panasonic is ceding this space completely is a mystery to us all.
 
pretty much px270 (mP2 only) + m4/3 + 12^ DR + 120fps fhd
px270 is $5700... so if you take out the lens and the 3mos sensor, then the cost would likely go down.
$5k i think is realistic (or lower if theyre smart)
 
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As the f55 proves, the specs are doable. Maybe just not in a low cost camera yet. High frame rate global shutter takes mucho bus speed and processing power as the entire frame has to be read out during the dark interval between frames. Rolling shutter is just reading out a line at a time during the whole frame interval.
 
dafreaking said:
It won't be done by a big name because it will destroy sales of the other cameras by the same manufacturer. Only those who don't have dedicated video cameras would possible even consider it.
Click to expand...
this is so stupid. really.


14stops is entry level IQ. And so are the rest of those specs. tech is trumping these specs more and more. standards are changing in years, not decades. let's stop defending the marketing departments and business models. There has to be a paradigm shift.
 
"I see cannibalization as a huge opportunity for us. Our core philosophy is to never fear cannibalization. If we don’t do it, someone else will." --- Tim Cook

"My passion has been to build an enduring company where people were motivated to make great products. The products, not the profits, were the motivation. Sculley flipped these priorities to where the goal was to make money. It's a subtle difference, but it ends up meaning everything." --- Steve Jobs

Sony may be hesitant to build a camera like that, for fear it will cannibalize other cameras. But it's just a matter of time before Blackmagic screws its head on straight, takes its 4K, global shutter, 12-stop sensor and plugs it in a good body. Really, Blackmagic can just throw away all five cameras it's working on (sorry, Blackmagic) and focus all its energy on just this one, and it could be great. Or AJA, Sound Devices, or some other small company with the chops to make it happen. They will eat Sony and Canon and Panasonic's lunch.
 
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I've already said I think something like this is likely - but it's likely to be s35 - not 4/3. I say that without personal preference either way, rather because Panasonic now have the s35, 4k, designed for video sensor. It makes far more technical sense to use such in this "AF200" - a sensor primarily designed for stills is always going to be disadvantaged when used for video. The alternative would be to design a new sensor, 4/3 and 8 Mpixel - but economies of scale make that unlikely.

Hence expect a future of 4/3 with the GH4, and no doubt eventually a GH5, but "true" video cameras being most likely s35.

As for when......? I half expected a "watch this space" announcement this NAB, but it sounds as if Panasonic still have quite a lot to do finalising the Varicam spec. When the Varicam is finished, it's logical to think they may then turn their design effort towards this "AF200". So maybe an outline announcement by IBC, prototype by NAB 2015, shipping product around Q4 2015?
 
Combat I totally agree with you. Sometimes it seems the obvious products are just not made. The GH4 is about the most paradigm shifting camera to be released recently imho. Business is the company's area and their choice. Think back when RED was young. Many touted the end of the large camera makers as RED was going to eat their lunch. Well they watched and responded but only when they had to. Now that the high end is loaded with choices I think the middle will get more attention going forward. The Canon ad above makes me chuckle with the $2499 price tag. No way with Canon!
 
harddrive said:
But then the lenses won't have the coverage
Click to expand...

A micro four thirds mount can be adapted to Arri PL, Canon EF, Canon FD, C-mount, Contax Yashica, Leica M, Leica R, M42, Nikon F, Olympus OM, Pentax K, and others.

Most of these, as you know, cover S35, and so you would get the full 4K resolution. For lenses like Four Thirds and C that don't, it breaks down like this:

A Four Thirds lens would cover about 3K's worth of the sensor. So your camera would become for that moment a 3K, Four Thirds mount camera.
A C-mount lens that covers S16 would cover 2K's worth of the sensor. So your camera would become for that moment a 2K, C-mount camera.
 
I may have got it completely wrong, but I don't think that will work - not the first part of what you propose.

My understanding is that the 4/3 mount is designed to be used with a 4/3 size sensor - put a s35 sensor behind a 4/3 mount, and you'll get cutoff. Such as EF lenses may well themselves have the coverage for the s35 sensor - but there'll be severe edge cutting due to the EF-4/3 mount adapter. Those adaptors I'm assuming are intended to be used not just with a 4/3 mount, but 4/3 sensor size as well, so just the centre area of the lens coverage gets used.

To utilise a s35 sensor, you need a mount that will allow it to be fully utilised. If we assume EF, then yes, it's then theoretically possible to use a 4/3 lens and adapt that to EF. It won't then cover the entire sensor - but could be used in a crop mode as you say, and the same for C-mount.

But that would then cause other problems, make the processing much more complex whilst yielding lower quality than when the full (s35) sensor is used. Engineering wise, it's probably just far more satisfactory to simply say "this is an s35 camera", certainly at anything like the price point you're hoping for.
 
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