noticing a trend

G

googalizer

Member
Ok I've been a member of this forum for a while and before that I constantly was reading all the posts and getting tons of awesome tips and advice. I love this site.

However as I browse through different thread topics I always read ones titled "how to get the film look" or "the best quality from my DVX" etc.

I always read those because that question is never answered the way I'd like it to be. Most replies are very helpful but not really what I think the poster was looking for.

Like to get the film look, and make a hollywood quality movie, we all know that they throw millions upon millions of dollars to get that look and quality.

Everyone says, "You need good sound, Hire a sound guy." "You need good picture and composition, Hire a good DP." "you better hire a good lighting guy" You've got to have good actors, Hire good actors." "you need a 35mm adaptor, buy one" etc

Then I read people say things like it's not arrow it's the archer or similar things. But it seems like the real answer is to throw money at it.

I know it takes all of those things to make a great quality movie but instead of telling us that which we already know tell us how to get there.

How about instead of hiring a good sound guy. Give a link to a book to read, or a class to take, or tips on how to make US the good sound guy. Or acting techniques for us to give our actors to make them better actors. Or how to get those great shots ourselves instead of hiring a good DP.

I know that throwing money would be the easy thing to do. But we don't have the money obviously. If we're supposed to be indie filmmakers we should be able to learn all the different aspects of making a high quality movie without having to hire some one who can. Or buy something we probably don't need just yet.

I've seen videos on this site where the poster says they had zero budget and they look GREAT! But with the anwers I read I feel as though I need to have a big budget to get similar results.

maybe I'm just ranting...........
 
The problem with "just linking to a book" isn't the answer you are looking for. Sure, you could learn all there is to know about audio, camera, lighting, etc... but you can't do it all by yourself and expect it to look like a multi million dollar film. You need a skilled team with imagination. Narrow it down to one thing you do best, hire the rest.
 
You're ranting a bit, yes. :) I think part of the problem is that sometimes questions are so general and broad, it's not very easy to give an answer to them. "How do I get a film look" is a very broad question, and there are many facets that will go into that. The short answer is what you said towards the end. Learn about all the areas of filmmaking (whether you have a budget or not). Because each of those play a role in 'achieving the elusive film look'.

And, there are so many different looks that can be achieved. A lot of that becomes subjective. It just comes down to experimenting.

If you are just asking "how do I get a film look", then you are obviously not looking at the finer details, and you need to hit the search button on the forums, and hit the record button on your camera and start trying things out. There isn't one golden thing that is going to get you there. 24 frames per second is a big step in the right direction, which is what made the dvx so hugely popular. Beyond that, it's just like anything else. Soak up everything you can, where you can, and find opportunities yourself to apply that, and test on your own. practice, practice.
Vague questions get vague answers.
Did that help? :)

Jason
 
Ditto. And also if you look around the web you'll find tutorials and such on three point lighting and all that good stuff. Or go to Amazon.com and search for "three point lighting" and you'll find lighting books. As for sound we do sound in via the camera and the XLR ports of course this has to be fixed in post but it's good sound if you turn everything mechanical off.

-Nate
 
1) Read book

2) Chuck book in bin :)

Just kidding, but the answer is somewhere in between, the archer needs to be good and that only comes with practice, BUT at the same time, the archer needs a bow as well (but it does'nt need to be the most expensive one, just good enough), because no matter how good an archer is he will never be able to sling an arrow with a broken arrow..

In the words of Arnie "Ca'marn Doooett"
 
I think the reason you often get answers like "throw money at it" or "hire ???" is because it is not really feasible to become an expert at all aspects of filmmaking. The reason Hollywood films cost so much money and look/sound so good is because they are paying lots of people, each of whom is a specialist in one aspect of the filmmaking process.

If you want good sound, you need someone who understands sound, understands how to capture sound, how to eliminate unwanted sound, how to process sound, how different mic's pick up different sounds, how different equipment fits each unique filmming experience, etc, etc...and that is just the tip of the iceburg of what is involved in knowing/understanding good sound...and that is just one aspect of the whole filmmaking process.

Yes, you can get a strong understanding of each aspect and you can probably become a strong specialist in a couple fields, but it's not likely that you can become an expert in all aspects of filmmaking.

If you look at the films offered up around here, either in the footage/grab sections, or in the contests, you'll probably find that the better examples have employed people who are strong in various aspects of the process and were not created by a single person.

That does not mean that if you have no budget that you cannot create a high-quality film, but it means you need to surround yourself with people who are just as passionate as yourself, but are specialists in one, or a couple, areas and who are just as excited as you about making something that they are willing to work together for little or no money, knowing that it is yet another opportunity to expand there skill/experience.

Now, having said all that...if you are not fortunate enough to be near other likeminded people, than you will have to become as knowledgable as you can in many areas of filmmaking. You can't do it in a global fashion (learning everything simultaneously). Instead you need to pick an area you are not strong in, then go out and shoot something (anything, doesn't matter what it is, could be throw away), but focus the bulk of your attention to that area you want to learn about.

If it's sound, then record different people in different settings/locations, saying things. And change where the mic is, how close it is, where it points, etc, etc. Then examine the resulting footage, how did each change affect the sound. Then take that sound into your audio software and see what different settings do to alter the sound.

Once you begin to understand how all the changes affect the sound, then pick some specific things and try to achieve them with what you have learned (e.g. recording a small child talking in a park located next to a busy street while eliminating as much of the traffic noise as possible, but keeping the park ambience, etc, etc).

Now, as you go through this process you will come across specific questions (e.g. If I want to record a dog barking in a backyard, do I want a short shotgun or a long shotgun? Do I need a windscreen? etc, etc?) These are the questions you can come here, and other forums, with and get strong answers that will actually be helpful.

Once you feel you can comfortably get decent sound (or whatever area you focused on) then pick another area and begin doing the same thing with it. You will not become an EXPERT in every field, but you should get strong at them, and be able to identify questions that can get solid answers.

Hope this helps.

Peace,
Larry
 
googalizer said:
How about instead of hiring a good sound guy. Give a link to a book to read, or a class to take, or tips on how to make US the good sound guy. Or acting techniques for us to give our actors to make them better actors. Or how to get those great shots ourselves instead of hiring a good DP.
Click to expand...
A book isn't the same as working with a mentor. I learned a ton from working with some very talented gaffers. They light the scene providing the necessary amount of light for the talent and then they begin sculpting the scene by subtracting the light from the rest of the scene. Painting with light is an art form. I learned more from watching those gaffers practice their craft than I ever would from reading a book. Regarding how to get those great shots, great composition is key to getting a great shot. If you want to learn more about composition take a photography class. Learn the rules and then break the rules. An acting technique isn't going to help someone that can't act in the first place. A good sound man has 3 things going for him: experience, quality gear and sensitive ears. Since you lack experience and money for new gear, how are your ears?
 
Yes that does help. You guys made a lot of good points. I understand that vague questions get vague answers. Maybe the problem is in the way the questions are asked. I'm not the one asking those questions, but I am the one reading the answers hoping it will apply to me. And most of the time I'm let down.

I guess I know what it is that needs to be done to improve myself and my movies, and that's practice just like Projx v2.0 said. Its just sometimes it's frustrating when I make a movie and the quality isn't there and I don't know what's missing other than a million dollars.

what if there was a thread that listed all the things needed to get great movie like quality video? I know that it is SOOOO broad of a thing to do but what if we just listed different tips and kept adding to it.

Like shoot in 24p
attempt to get good DOF
Move the camera around.

Ok that's too hard to do I guess. I"m going to go practice. =s
 
There's plenty to be learned through a marriage of book study and hands-on experience. The problem is that a lot of very young or inexperienced people who aspire to become filmmakers drop in casually to ask questions for which there are no simple answers.

"How can I make the DVX look like Saving Private Ryan." To which the answer is, you can't. However, you can tweak shutter and do some diligent grading work to mimic the look somewhat.

"All my footage is dark". "What's the difference between 35mm and the HVX?" These questions could sometimes be better explored through research by book or online [in published materials, not forums]. I learned methods for exposure in film school - which is a marrying of hundreds of hours of desk research and hands-on field study. Film school takes ten or more 200++ page books because that's what it takes to explain it all. The ASC manual isn't twelve pages of relevant content with 575 pages of fluff.

The working professionals here are formally schooled in cinema or cut our teeth on the set or learned the crafts through a combination of both (in my case).

There is a point where these same repeated questions that merit a course of study become tiresome to read and reply to.

I generally stay out of the "professor...?" threads unless I know that I've got a lot of time and patience up front.

e
 
Shoot whatever you can, gather friends, and let them critique the hell out of it. By learning what you did wrong, you can do it better through practice.
 
Now.. I say this knowing this forum is filled with a great many individuals that have great careers in the world of film / tv etc.

BUT.

I can say this with some confidence, that most of the people asking "How do I get that film look?" etc.. are not going to be having any kind of real career in this field. And I don't mean to be a jerk, but some people just do not 'get it' , whatever 'it' is..

24p... depth of field... lighting.. sound ... story... acting.. etc etc .. on and on.. I've seen countless responses to that effect often with very good advice. As is the case so far in this thread.

It is a popular question because 'everyone' is a filmmaker nowadays. And with a DVX they have this amazing wonder button called '24p' and they suddenly want to know why their stuff doesn't look amazing.. or want to know how to get it too look the way they see it in Hollywood films.

The simple fact is, a fraction of the people on this site will ever go on to make anything worth seeing, most just want to know how to do it in a quick fix.

Nobody wants to spend the insane hours it takes to take an idea from your head to paper to a finish film.

Reminds me of the Staples commercials with the Easy Button.

Its hard to say what I mean without sounding like a prick... but no matter how many times you ask what kind of Golf Club to use... it won't make you a pro golfer. Thats how I feel about these kinds of questions.... especially "what type of camera settings did you use".. oy

disclaimer: having said this I make no claims that I myself will make it anywhere and may infact wind up begging for change at a downtown subway stop.

Capt. Quirk: Having friends give you feedback on your work is usually a complete waste of time.. "That was good!" "Cool.. I liked it" usually resemble the type of feedback you're gonna get from them. Even other filmmakers are reluctant to be brutally honest unless anonymity is involved.
 
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Loki said:
Having friends give you feedback on your work is usually a complete waste of time.. "That was good!" "Cool.. I liked it" usually resemble the type of feedback you're gonna get from them. Even other filmmakers are reluctant to be brutally honest unless anonymity is involved.
Click to expand...

Although I completely dissagree with your rash decision that someone doesn't "get it" just because they're eager to learn (nomatter how vague the question), I have to agree with this.
I'd say go straight to your competitive peers. They're the ones who hope you crash and burn either out of jealousy or to just boost they're own ego. Thats where the most brutally honest feedback comes from...more brutal than honest, but still more honest than you'll get from a polite friend.
 
I'll throw my professor hat into the ring... I have a decent career in the LA industry... but I am not a DP, I am not a Director, I am not a writer, I am not a Sound engeneer, ... gaffer... grip... producer... etc... What I am is hard to name but most of us fall into this category. I got to where I am at by a series of incredibly fortunate accidents where when faced with a deciscion of work your a$$ off for little to no pay or go home and play Xbox... I chose to work. I have failed a ton of times. But I learned. I became reasonably good in a lot of areas but am only a master of maybe one or two. I'm hardly the DP that some of the people on this site are but I have learned from experience and feel comfortable commenting on things here because of that experience. Like Benjamin Franklin said... I did not fail at making a light bulb 1000 times... I found 1000 ways not to make a light bulb. What I'm getting at is... you just have to do it. You have to be humble and realize that your work will be pretty weak in the beginning (I often look at my work and go... eeek... I screwed that shot up). Don't have an ego. Eventually you will figure some things out. After you screwed up a shot you can then get on the list and say... "I was shooting an interview in a bedroom in a hospital and no matter how I lit the person they still wound up looking sick, even green." You responses will start to look more like... "the overhead lights were florescent right? That can create a green hue on skin... here is how you fix it..." Rather than a vague response about theory or "hire a DP".

As far as a list of things needed for a good project... here are my suggestions.
-start small: super short script, 1 location, very few actors
-Get the best sound you can, stay away from noisy locations, mic all the actors, record one channel normal and the other at -8 db (in case someone raises their voice, record 30 seconds of silence with everyone in place and the lights on (room tone) to help you later in editing.
-feed your people on location, makes for happy people who want to work for you again
-make sure you have access to everything on another day for pickups... you will definately need other shots once you have begun editing.
-edit your own projects... even if you never want to be an editor... be in the room and understand how the project is put together in post. pay attention to what you missed and make a list. Learn how things cut together and what shots worked and didn't work.
-Do a pickups day, try and get all those shots you realised that you needed.
-edit again
-level your audio around -12 (people can turn up their TVs when they watch it), lay the room tone under the audio to make the sound seamless
-show the project to people who don't know you or the project and have no idea that the person showing it to them is the director. Get their feedback.
- re-edit.

Take a deep breath and start working on the next project.

Cheers,
 
McLeish said:
Although I completely dissagree with your rash decision that someone doesn't "get it" just because they're eager to learn (nomatter how vague the question).
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Nothing wrong with eagerness to learn. I am all for that, but that isn't what I am referring too.

I am not talking about people that actually want to learn.. and will actually do some thinking on their own...

My point is, the people that are constantly asking these vague questions are usually not the people producing something worth watching. Those people are doing, and not always worrying about "the filmic look" etc.

Point being, in relation to the OP, so many people ask this question with the hope of a quick easy fix.. or a quick easy answer. There isn't one.

You can learn how to make films, anyone can. I won't debate that, but like any other art form some people just "get it" more than others. This is a reality; if you think that is a rash judgement so be it, but I have generally found it to be true.

And I'm sorry, if you(not you specifically) are too lazy to do your own research on a subject, why should I provide you with answer?

There are people on this site who are far more generous than I on this site several in this thread. Maybe I just prefer to learn as much as I can on my own before I ask for help. Though I am sure you could dig up some idiotic questions of my own from this site from years past.

Sharing knowledge is one thing... holding someone's hand is another.
 
too f*cking right, Loki. check out someone like Joe Swanberg. that guy just grabs his PD-150 and makes features that do very well on the festival circuit. he's even gotten 2 or 3 distributed. and this month he's featured in an article in Filmmaker Magazine. why? because he's out there making films only he could make. he's not trying to emulate what other people are doing.

the community here is comprised of people on one of two paths. you want to direct hollywood movies? go to USC and network your ass off. want to be a veritable filmmaker? entrust the specifics of the technology to the camera department and start asking questions rooted in your NEED to express something that matters. my 2¢.
 
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I am the same way, Loki. And I agree with you...

I've noticed many Ebay ads, DVXUser marketplace threads, and many many many stories about people trying to sell they're DVX/HVX/XL2 whatever because they had these big plans to make the ultimate movie, but then they found out how hard it was and bailed and got stuck with all the "worthless" equipment.

It used to be that everyone wanted to be an actor... But now the trend is going to everyone wanting to be a filmmaker. The DVX and similar cameras have opened an avenue for every average joe with deep pockets or itchy trigger fingers to buy a camera and shoot a film. That's cool, I love that... It makes my dreams come true. But on the other hand, it brings several tons of schmucks into the scene who think they're the next Spielberg. Yea sure, they want to make a movie. But they don't actually want to try.

I've seen SO many people try to make a film, and then once they figure out that you need actors and sets and lights and sound and all of that, they bail. Or, alternatively, they ignore everything you need to make a good film and make the crappiest crap you've ever seen. And then once they realize their crappiness, they come to places like this forum and ask questions like "How do you make video look like film?", or "How do you get the 'Saw' effect?" and so on.

I agree that there are so many "filmmakers" looking for an easy way to stardom. An easy way to talent. But if they have to resort to coming here to ask vague questions about the realtive basics of filmmaking, you can bet your buckets they aren't cut out for filmmaking. It's a strenuous, stressful, arduous task that is very rewarding and thrilling in the long run. But so many people think they can get away with half-assing it all... But they can't.

Making great films comes from trying; trying like hell, every single day of your life until, one day, somebody important might notice what you're doing and give you the opportunity to go and make your first great film. Or your second. And then from there, you live out your days doing what you truly love. Of course, you don't always need that important person to come along. You could make great films your whole life and never once step foot in Hollywood. For some people, making the film itself is the greatest reward. And it's those people who have the talent, the ambition, and the essence of a true filmmaker. Making the actual film is the best part of being a filmmaker. The fame and money are all just bonuses that you get if you're lucky; it should never be the end goal of making a movie. If, for you, it is the end goal... then you're heart is in the wrong place, and you will most likely fail at ever making a film people will watch. However, you might get lucky...

Hollywood is filled with so-called filmmaker's... But I always get the feeling that everyone out there is in it for the money. It's all a business to them. Film is an art. And as with all art, the best kind is always made straight from the heart. It's the passion that drives the talent.

Really... Once you step back and look at it... Genuine, honest to God filmmakers are a rarity.
 
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To address your original problem... some people get tired of giving the exact same, EXTENSIVELY detailed answers to the same questions. Everybody thinks their situation is totally unique even if it's 99% the same as the next guy... and this manner of thinking causes the perception that the archival answers are worthless, out-dated, or for some other reason don't apply to them.

It used to be a running joke how some people would come along and post a question that so blatantly showed a 100% lack of SEARCHING for the answer... and some guys get offended if you even suggest they search.

"Your answer is 4 threads below this one... check it out"...

"thanks for the big help guys... I could have searched for an answer elsewhere if I wanted to..."


I think that there's a steady stream of new visitors that come along with an attitude of entitlement... and some display a disgust for our membership and the forum if they don't get the answer they want to hear... right away.

More then anything I think you have those people to thank for the short and less informed answers then you used to see from the members on this board that you KNOW know more then they let on in a reply.

For some questions I could use a form letter with a fill in the blank name... and even if the OP just read the same letter with somebody else's name on it... they wouldn't get it... they have to see their OWN name there to understand.

Sorry... so now I'm ranting. :-)
 
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