Noob/Starter Film Audio Questions :/

[xxbluejay21]

I have a lott of questions about audio so it would be great if you guys could help me out. Thanks!

1. I can't decide between a Rode NTG-2, Azden SGM-2x, Audio Technica AT897, and Sennheiser ME66 :/ Which one is best?? How does a Rode Directional Videomic ($150) compare to these? I've heard comparisons and I seriously think the sound quality is the same.
2. If I'm going to have a boom operator should I still connect the microphone to my camera with a beachtek or should I connect it to an external recorder?
3. Are all digital recorders the same if I'm using a high quality microphone? For example if I record sound on a 40 dollar recorder vs a 300 dollar recorder with the rode videomic 3.5mm mic output will it sound the same?
4. Would recording on a digital recorder (like a zoom H4N) be higher quality sound than on my camera with an XLR adapter?
5. Why do I need a 200 dollar XLR adapter box when I can just use a XLR to 3.5mm cable that costs me 20 bucks??

I have a Canon 7d btw. Thanks for answering!

edit: I just saw a video of a guy that had a videomic pro and had a 16 foot extension cable and there was absolutely no hum or buzz!!! What the heck. Is there some sort of special cable that will allow me to get the same results with a 3.5mm microphone?

 

[Richard Crowley]

1) I would spend the extra $$$ and go for the Rode NTG-3
2) You will need a long-ish cable in any case. I would think that 25 feet/10m would be a minimum requirement.
The choice of using an external recorder vs. recording on a camera is a different matter. You are virtually always better off with a separate sound recorder.
3) IMHO you will see better results in the final mix from using a GOOD microphone, properly positioned.
OTOH, a "$40 recorder" sounds suspiciously like a toy. Or at least something that probably isn't any better than what your (unidentified) camera will do.
4) Since you didn't identify your camera we can't really answer that definitively. But in general, a separate recorder like the Zoom, will probably outperform a camera.
5) In SOME cases, the $200 box gets you nothing but $180 poorer. But you need to know what you are doing and what the trade-offs are to make that decision.
I have made many quite acceptable shots with nothing but a home-made XLR to mini-phone adapter. It depends VERY MUCH on your circumstances and ability to deal with them.

 

[JAWflyer3]

edit: I just saw a video of a guy that had a videomic pro and had a 16 foot extension cable and there was absolutely no hum or buzz!!! What the heck. Is there some sort of special cable that will allow me to get the same results with a 3.5mm microphone?

well XLR lines are balanced vs. 3.5mm mic lines are not. Therefore the signal of the XLR can travel much farther without interference and loss of quality. the 3.5 can not.

1) I have an Azden SGM-1x, and think it works perfectly for me. however, a vast majority of people do like the rode ntg-2 or ntg-3.
2) I'd reccomend connecting the boom to an external recorder since your 7d can't disable AGC.
3) Quality Digital recorders + Quality mic = best quality sound. if you cheap out on one end or the other, it won't be the best that it "could" be. wether you need the "best" possible sound or not is your call. some do, some don't.
4) Definitely better quality if you record to an external recorder. I'd suggest getting the tascam dr100.

 

[Noiz2]

1. I can't decide between a Rode NTG-2, Azden SGM-2x, Audio Technica AT897, and Sennheiser ME66 :/ Which one is best?? How does a Rode Directional Videomic ($150) compare to these? I've heard comparisons and I seriously think the sound quality is the same.

That is a very wide group of mics. Did you hear the mics your self or are you talking about YouTube or some other comparison. Because you really can't compare anything that has been posted to the web. Azden is the only one I would dismiss outright. But the others are not nec comparable. The NTG2 and VMP are not close to the same kind of mic at all.

That said if YOU can't hear the difference and your making films for yourself (ie not showing up on someone elses set to get paid for doing sound) then pick whatever.

2. If I'm going to have a boom operator should I still connect the microphone to my camera with a beachtek or should I connect it to an external recorder?

Once you don't have a boom operator there is no good choice, so you might as well go with the simplest and connect to the camera.

3.

Are all digital recorders the same if I'm using a high quality microphone? For example if I record sound on a 40 dollar recorder vs a 300 dollar recorder with the rode videomic 3.5mm mic output will it sound the same?

NO. By most definitions "high quality" and 3.5mm don't go together on a wired mic. But the answer is still NO. And especially NO with a $40 recorder.

4. Would recording on a digital recorder (like a zoom H4N) be higher quality sound than on my camera with an XLR adapter?

YES But how much depends on the camera. Your using a 7D so YES.

5. Why do I need a 200 dollar XLR adapter box when I can just use a XLR to 3.5mm cable that costs me 20 bucks??

Not sure what your talking about. I'm guessing that "adapter box" is a preamp or a juiclink with AGC disabling tone. You do need a balancing transformer to properly go from XLR to 3.5mm. There are cables you can get that don't wire it properly and just terminate one side. So I guess my answer is you don't need a $200 box but I have no idea if the $20 cable is what you need either.

I have a Canon 7d btw. Thanks for answering!

edit: I just saw a video of a guy that had a videomic pro and had a 16 foot extension cable and there was absolutely no hum or buzz!!! What the heck. Is there some sort of special cable that will allow me to get the same results with a 3.5mm microphone?

3.5mm is just an unbalanced mic cable. It's possible to do very long runs with out hums and buzzes. It's just a lot more likely to pick up hums and buzzes with unbalanced lines. If you keep your run away from noisy devices you can go far cleanly.

But I would also point out that unless you know the whole history of the footage then you don't really know if it had hums and they were removed or they just weren't there to begin with.

 

[Rick R]

2. If I'm going to have a boom operator should I still connect the microphone to my camera with a beachtek or should I connect it to an external recorder?

Another factor to keep in mind. Even a highly skilled boom operator would not work without some kind of HP monitoring system.
An appropriate mic on a stand, or a lav, may be a better option than an unskilled boom op, despite their good intentions and/or low pay.

OT Noiz2, I'm often reminded of Edwin Howard Armstrong passing his Alpine NJ tower on the way to Manhattan.

 

[Richard Crowley]

I just saw a video of a guy that had a videomic pro and had a 16 foot extension cable and there was absolutely no hum or buzz!!! What the heck. Is there some sort of special cable that will allow me to get the same results with a 3.5mm microphone?

Whether you get hum/buzz or other kinds of artifacts when using microphone extension cables depends on several factors. Some of the primary factors are:

1) BALANCED vs. UNBALANCED
Virtually all consumer 3.5mm connections are unbalanced, and XLR connections are balanced. There are A FEW exceptions to this, but it is a pretty reliable rule of thumb. The whole reason for using balanced connections is because balanced differential signals are less sensitive to ambient interference than unbalanced. This is by design. It is more expensive to provide balanced connections, but the increased resistance to interference is well worth the extra expense.

But many small camcorders, etc. have only unbalanced 3.5mm mic inputs, so we are stuck with it. One way around this is to use an adapter device such as those from Beachtek, JuicedLink, et.al. They have balanced XLR inputs and a short cable that connects to the camcorder's unbalanced 3.5mm mini-phone plug. If the adapter box is very close to the camcorder, that unbalanced connection length is minimized and that reduces susceptibility to external interference.

2) SHIELDING
I suspect that much (most?) of the complaints about using 3.5mm extension cables results from using UNshielded cables. Most of the 3.5mm extension cables you can buy at consumer retail places (Radio Shack, et.al.) are UNSHIELDED because they were intended for use with headphones, earbuds, speakers, etc. And output signals like that don't need shielding. Because shielded wire costs more than unshielded wire, those extension cables are mostly unshielded. To make matters worse, they typically don't even mention whether the cable is shielded or unshielded. Again, because the assumption is that you are buying an earphone extension, not a microphone extension. So, if you want to buy (or make) a 3.5mm microphone extension cable, be sure it uses SHIELDED wire.

3) AMBIENT INTERFERENCE
The reason to use balanced and/or shielded cable is to reduce the pickup of ambient interference. If you are out in the middle of the wilderness operating your camcorder on internal battery power, it is possible that you could get away with unshielded, unbalanced connection to your microphone. But if you are shooting anywhere near modern civilization, forget it and go with the proven solutions (balanced and/or shielded).

Of course, even with the proper shielding, unbalanced connections will always be more susceptible to ambient interference. That is why professional equipment always uses balanced connections.

 

[xxbluejay21]

Thanks for the Answers everyone!! I figured out everything now except for question 1 :/ I narrowed it down to the Rode Videomic Pro, Rode NTG-2, AT875r, and AT897. I intend to use them on both on the camera and for short booming. Is there any huge difference in sound quality between these microphones? I know VMP is a 3.5mm so it doesn't need an adapter like juicedlink and it has that 20db boost which is pretty cool.

 

[henryqiu]

Thanks for the Answers everyone!! I figured out everything now except for question 1 :/ I narrowed it down to the Rode Videomic Pro, Rode NTG-2, AT875r, and AT897. I intend to use them on both on the camera and for short booming. Is there any huge difference in sound quality between these microphones? I know VMP is a 3.5mm so it doesn't need an adapter like juicedlink and it has that 20db boost which is pretty cool.

By my own research before going for NTG-3, I learned that Rode NTG-1/2 and AT 875/897 are very close in how they sound to human ears. In my opinion, among these 4 mics, the real big difference is that NTG-2 is by far the most popular one of them nowadays, and it surely retains its market value very well when it comes to reselling it. VMP is in a different class. It's designed to be an on-camera consumer-grade shotgun mic. The best thing about it is not that it is the best sounding mic for the price, but that it is by far the most convenient AND good-enough sounding mic for any video DSLR camera or small handheld camcorder.

For shooting video with a 7D (with or without an audio recorder), I recommend that you get a VMP. If you want an audio recorder to go with your 7D, I strongly recommend that you stay away from H4n, cheap Zoom recorder and even DR-100. I'd suggest that that you either wait for a H4n/DR-100 replacement, or get a better recorder such as Sony PCM M10. M10 can directly connect to any mic that does not require external phantom power, including self powered mics, dynamic mics, and lavs that only require plug-in power. If you use a mixer/preamp, M10 is about the best recorder under $300 at the time.

Here are some data to entertain:

- Sony PCM M10's built-in mics: sensitivity = -33 dB /PA @1KHz (typical), noise < 17 dBA, max input = 123 dB SPL (typical)
- Rode Lavalier: sensitivity = -33.5, noise = 25, max input = 110, s/n = 65, dynamic range = 85, frequency = 60-18K
- Rode VideoMic Pro: sensitivity = -38, noise = 20, max input = 134, s/n=74, dynamic range = 114, frequency resp = 40-20K
- Rode VideoMic __: sensitivity = -38, noise = 20, max input = 134, s/n=74, dynamic range = 114, frequency resp = 40-20K
- Rode NTG-1: sensitivity = -36, noise = 18, max input = 139, s/n=76, dynamic range = 121, frequency response = 20-20K
- Rode NTG-2: sensitivity = -36, noise = 18, max input = 131, s/n=76, dynamic range = 113, frequency response = 20-20K
- Rode NTG-3: sensitivity = -30, noise = 13, max input = 130, s/n=81, dynamic range = 117, frequency response = 40-20K
- Sennheiser MKH416 P48: sensitivity = 25mV/PA => -32dB, noise = 13, max in = 130, s/n = 81, dynamic = 117, 40-20KHz
- Sennheiser MKE400: sensitivity = 8 to 20mv/PA => -41 to -34dB, noise = 21, max input = 126, frequency resp = 40-20K
- Rode NT4/NT5 (cardioid caps): sensitivity = -38, noise < 16, max input = 143, s/n = 78, dynamic range > 128, 20-20KHz
- Rode NT 2000: sensitivity = -36, noise = 7, max input = 147 to 157, s/n = 87, dynamic range = 147, frequency = 20-20K
- AT 875: sensitivity = -30, noise = ?, max input = 127, s/n = 74, dynamic range = 107, frequency = 90-20K
- AT 897 (on phantom): sensitivity = -40, noise = ?, max input = 129, s/n = 77, dynamic = 112, frequency = 20-20K
- AT 897 (on battery): sensitivity = -41, dynamic = 98, max input = 115
- AT 4053b (hyper): sensitivity = -34, noise = 16, max input = 145 (or 155), s/n = 78, dynamic = 129, freq = 20-20KHz
- Shure SM58: sensitivity = -54.5, freqency response = 50-15KHz

 

[Mitch.Kear]

Thanks for the Answers everyone!! I figured out everything now except for question 1 :/ I narrowed it down to the Rode Videomic Pro, Rode NTG-2, AT875r, and AT897. Is there any huge difference in sound quality between these microphones?

To my ears the AT897 is the most natural sounding of the bunch. Though the NTG 2 has less self noise and since you wouldn't be using a good mixer/recorder it may be a better choice.