No room tone, no hope!

T

Tokpaler

Active member
So...

I'm cutting sound and designing a few scenes for a feature and the recordist didn't bother/insist on getting room tone. Scrubbing the clips for a clean plate yields no hope either! =b I'm hoping that when the scoring comes in the music will cover up the some of the extraneous noise. *crosses fingers*

Hope to hear your thoughts on this so I can learn a thing or two from you guys! :)

PS ...and yes, I'm also ranting! =b
 
Room tone doesn't cover extraneous noise, just the opposite. Room tone is the 'sound of silence' of the room used to cover gaps between edits where the track otherwise goes dead. If the director or mixer on-set failed to record tone, perhaps you can extract bits and pieces between words and sentences or between the slate and the start of dialog to use.
 
Steve House said:
Room tone doesn't cover extraneous noise, just the opposite.
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I think he means, the room tone would have replaced the extraneous noise moments between dialog.
There is definitely many more ways to use room tone than to just fill empty gaps of course.
 
Did the OMF have handles on the dialogue? I always ask for 10 second handles on the dialogue. You'd be surprised what you can find in there.
 
Tokpaler said:
Hope to hear your thoughts on this so I can learn a thing or two from you guys! :)
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I'm no pro, and I think other that have spoke before me have certainly more experience than me, but I guess you can always rely on other here to help. People around here could certainly help, to record room tone for you to use in your production.
Room tone isn't a very hard thing to do. Sure, I'm not saying it can be done by everyone (properly I mean) but if you ask for something specific, I'm sure there's people here that could help you on this.
Unless it's a very specific environement, which you can't "mimic" with anything else, then I think you'll have to keep your fingers crossed!
Good luck with your production!
 
I'm confused - he's explained (if I read it correctly) that he's just not got enough - he's scrubbed through looking for something he can use (clean plate), but with no luck. I don't think any of us would be able to get the missing room tone any better than the original recordist!

Looking for tiny sections with the idea of looping them sounds like a tricky job. Depending on the characteristics of the room the original was shot in, I'd consider maybe finding something similar and dropping the dialogue over the new one. Often easier - but it does raise the noise floor - so rather depends on the scene?
 
As a dubbing mixer for over 20 years now there are two aspects to room tone:

1: Identical mono room tone that is required to fill and smooth out dialogue tracks and act as pollyfilla so that continuity of noise floor is maintained as different takes are edited together in a scene. This can be recorded on location at the same level as the dialogue and should fit the background noise floor. Sometimes it may not be possible to do this due to time and the ever present battle to keep people quiet on set after a take but 30 Secs should be enough. This can also be stolen from takes or even whilst the crew settles and just before the action is called.

There enters another problem and I still make people put clapper boards on my films when I am a DOP and will not allow the director to call action untill I call camera and can hear that everything has settled for a take. This discipline existed for lots of reasons and if followed will allow for a few seconds of silent activity or noise floor before each take.

2: Room tone that adds ambience or defines the texture of the ambience of the scene, this is usually stereo and I will lay up all sorts of options depending on the scene, this can be from just stereo room buzz or full bar noise with musak musak and walla etc. Most of these sounds come from my library and consist of good stereo width tracks that can also mask edits but are in addition to the filler to maintain mono noose floor on main dialogue tracks.
 
paulears said:
I don't think any of us would be able to get the missing room tone any better than the original recordist!
Depending on the characteristics of the room the original was shot in, I'd consider maybe finding something similar and dropping the dialogue over the new one.
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Room tone are different from one to another, but never like Day and Night, when you record one according to a specific description. I'd try that solution: record a new one, in a similar environement. Make multiple recording (levels, placement) and try to "fit" the better in the final mix. That's what I'd do, as the options here are limited.
 
Gary Nattrass gave an accurate description of 'room tone'... 'Room tone' is normally inserted (when needed) by the dialog editor, prior to the other effects, (inclluding 'atmospheres', which is often confused with 'room tone') to fill in gaps and such to give the dialog continuity. Pauses in the location dialog takes, make a great source.. and are easily lopped, if none were intentionally recorded. Most dialog editors I've talked to instinctively look for these RT gaps. I often hesitate saying "speed" for a few moments after rolling sound, to facilitate this with a noisy caffeinated crew and/or a 1st AD who forgets or ignores my RT requests.
 
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Great Rick so it's not only a dinosaur me that recalls the days when you had to wait for all the crew to settle, a lot of new media people thing you just push record and it all happens but there is a discipline that can still be useful on set.

As I recall the full monty goes something like:

1: "Turnover" (from 1st AD or director)
2: "Sound running" (from recordist)
3: "Speed" (from cam op to say camera is up to speed)
4: "Mark it" (from camera op to clapper loader)
5: clap goes on (with ID from clapper loader)
6: camera re positions to shot framing
7: a pause (this is when everything should be quiet and where room tone can be stolen)
8: "Camera" (from cam op to indicate that he is ready and all is settled)
9: "Action" ( from director)
10: "Cut"
 
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Thanks for the replies guys!

The thing about the production is it's only a step (maybe two) away from a student film, not that it's not any good! =b So by saying that, the crew involved in the production are actually pretty good, but not as good as the seasoned veterans, of course.

I'm working off a machine that has soundtrack pro, and the whole audio files is in my hard drive. What I like about working in soundtrack pro is it references the whole clip itself that was in the timeline when I bounced it from FCP 7. Drifting issues aside, it can be pretty convenient to work in.

On a different note, the recordist did take room tone, but on a different location and not where I really need it. But I'll see how I can play this to my advantage.

1: Identical mono room tone that is required to fill and smooth out dialogue tracks and act as pollyfilla so that continuity of noise floor is maintained as different takes are edited together in a scene. This can be recorded on location at the same level as the dialogue and should fit the background noise floor. Sometimes it may not be possible to do this due to time and the ever present battle to keep people quiet on set after a take but 30 Secs should be enough. This can also be stolen from takes or even whilst the crew settles and just before the action is called.
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The funny thing about asking for room tone is that's when the crew and the actors think it's a good time to make faces and do a little dance for their own amusement, so I can relate when you say it's an ever present battle! As for no.2 - the production is sort of a post-apocalypse type deal. I'm trying to go for that "Book of Eli" sound environment where all you ever hear are gunshots and wind, so a clean dialogue is crucial so I can later degress it with awesome atmosphere where needed.

Room tone are different from one to another, but never like Day and Night, when you record one according to a specific description. I'd try that solution: record a new one, in a similar environment. Make multiple recording (levels, placement) and try to "fit" the better in the final mix. That's what I'd do, as the options here are limited.
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Unfortunately, I don't have my own recording equipment. And even if I did, I'd be hard pressed to imitate or emulate the tone as most of the locations were in places far different from where I am right now! But you gave me an idea, I'll try using different room tone recorded in a different but similar sounding location, I'm pretty sure I have them in a hard drive somewhere from where I dumped my past shoots =b
Most dialog editors I've talked to instinctively look for these RT gaps. I often hesitate saying "speed" for a few moments after rolling sound, to facilitate this with a noisy caffeinated crew and/or a 1st AD who forgets or ignores my RT requests.
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Same thing here when I'm recording. 5 seconds of silence just before the director calls action can really be precious in post, especially if you're also the one cutting it!
Great Rick so it's not only a dinosaur me that recalls the days when you had to wait for all the crew to settle, a lot of new media people thing you just push record and it all happens but there is a discipline that can still be useful on set.
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If this how dinosaurs work then I'd be honored to work with one! =b

 
Couple of things.
In the US Room Tone only refers to the first definition that Gary gave. The second is usually called ambience or Backgrounds. Just a FYI.

In budgeted films that go through a full sound post RT is used by the dialog editors and is really important. Mostly because someone paying the rent is going to hear the dialog "bare" and it better sound smooth.

In ENG or other projects that go through hardly any sound post it's also important because you don't have anything else to cover.

In the majority of other projects it's not so important. I always want it but in fact I rarely use the recorded RT (if it exists).
The reasons are twofold.
First I'm the editor and mixer and the director et all are never going to hear the dialog "bare" so I don't have to have a completely seamless dialog track. And for the little glitches that need some coverage I can "steal" enough RT from the gaps in the dialog to use for fill. I also find that outside of a professional set RT recorded on it's own is hardly ever a good match because the environment is constantly changing.

Second I do a full sound track. If you do full background tracks for the film the changing noise floor is almost always inaudible. Where it is audible you do need to patch with RT if you have it or fake some, but 99% of the time just fading out on the handles on the dialog will make the edits seamless. The exception is extremely noisey dialog, but in that case the recorded RT pretty much never works either.

So my answer, off the bat, to the OP question would be you don't have enough in the way of BG's.


On the flip side I watched an episode of Mad Men the other day and they obviously were cutting a scene that had a lot of RT and they didn't fill and cover and it sounded AWFUL. So you do need it sometimes, or at least some very artfully done BG tracks or it starts sounding like amature night.

Slathering music on to cover a lack of proper FX work screams "no budget" and no post, so I would go there only as a very last resort.

STP is very limited for post work. It is designed for folks doing event video and such. It has a very hard time with the kind of track count you should have on a narrative film (generally at least 30, but up to more than 200). It also really only works if it's on the same machine as the the FCP project since the "send to STP" sends the audio still embedded in the video so the "project" size is HUGE if you have to send it to another computer. As you pointed out you get access to the whole clip. The catch is that STP needs every video file used in the FCP project.

And from a sound persons point of view it doesn't work like a "sound" program. Picture editors tend to like it because it works very much the way a picture editing program does. And that is after all the target audience.
 
To be honnest I do most of my audio track laying in FCP these days as it is quick and similar to the audiofile systems I used in the past. Soundtrack pro is not so good so I normally export OMF into pro tools for mixing.

As for room tone it is all about hiding the edits and creating a constant noise floor on the dialogue tracks and the longer you can do crossfades on room tone the better it may also be possible to add a mono dither type room tone to a whole scene and you will be amazed what we put on to give continuity of backgrounds. Even a sound from an adjacent room such as a TV or distant boom box can hide a multitude of sins.

Mixing mono and stereo backgrounds can give good depth and coverage amd whole moods can be created from next to nothing. Also if you have a stereo track that is close try monoing it and see if it fits.

I could go on but editing a clean dialogue track together before you add stereo ambiences or backgrounds can be a good start and I even still do a dialogue pre mix to make sure I have a consistent noise floor.

P.S thanks for the compliment but as a sound engineer of 33 years now I get a lot of bad feeling from people who think I bang on about the old days but the principles of good film making have been well defined for over 60 years and if you follow the basic rules during shooting the post process should be even more creative and complimentary to the final film.
 
I also find that outside of a professional set RT recorded on it's own is hardly ever a good match because the environment is constantly changing.
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That's what I'm finding out the longer I go through the scenes =b but patching with RT found in between dialogues is somewhat challenging since the actors are constantly moving in some scenes. I normally do scoring on the films that I cut or at least add a little ambient music, but the director went with a different composer and honestly I don't think I'd be able to deliver the project on time if I also scored the whole thing (that and they didn't have enough budget for me to score it! Lol!).

When you say I don't have enough on the way of BG's, are you referring to music, ambience, foley, etc...?

As for room tone it is all about hiding the edits and creating a constant noise floor on the dialogue tracks and the longer you can do crossfades on room tone the better it may also be possible to add a mono dither type room tone to a whole scene and you will be amazed what we put on to give continuity of backgrounds
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Advice taken! doing longer crossfades now and it's working wonderfully on scenes that do have room tones, but can you elaborate on the mono dither thing? I probably wasn't in class when my mentor discussed it =b
P.S thanks for the compliment but as a sound engineer of 33 years now I get a lot of bad feeling from people who think I bang on about the old days but the principles of good film making have been well defined for over 60 years and if you follow the basic rules during shooting the post process should be even more creative and complimentary to the final film.
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I know I have a lot to learn and I acknowledge people's experiences with filmmaking especially people who know a lot more than I do =b



 
There are reasons why "the old ways" became standard and very few things have changed that would make them out of date. The biggest I guess is that the cost of entry is so low that folks are doing things that they would never do if they had to pay an hourly rate to have fixed. When every minute cost a lot (as it still does for big budget films) people tended to work smarter.
 
Sorry shouldn't have possibly mentioned dither as its a digital term and basically meant that you added a noise floor to digital recordings to hide any noise as fades were being done.

In basic terms what you need to do when editing dialogue tracks is to add mono noise or room tone to hide the edits as they go through, when I edit dialogue I cross fade on every single edit and even a 6-12 frame overlap can hide things and the addition of a overall mono room tone to a scene can smooth things out greatly.

Adding stereo and spot effects will also build up the mood of the scene.

I used to have a fantastic libray of all sorts of neutral room tones and some wonderful aircon and ambient atmospheres but most of it was lost when I went from AMS audiofile to pro tools and fcp as my editors.
 
Quick question for Gary, Rick, and others.... How far off do you think we might be from having a piece of software specifically for analyzing a scene, extracting seconds (or fractions of seconds), and then using the extractions to generate a forgotten track of room tone?
 
I don't think it's a realistic thing to aim for. There are already programs/plugins that will try to create "room tone". The problem is where you really need it is when it's actively changing a lot. If it's fairly static it's not (usually) super hard to create some fill that will work. It's when you have all kinds of changing "stuff" in the BG that you get problems. That is extremely hard to create and I doubt it's very "automatable".

To me it's a bit like, we have a lot of dogs (and so a lot of dog excrement) so how to we turn that into food to feed hungry folks. Even if you can do it do, you really want to?

The point is YOU are creating a world (as a sound editor) and trying to tell a story, why would you want to abdicate your control to an automated process?
 
Noiz2 said:
The point is YOU are creating a world (as a sound editor) and trying to tell a story, why would you want to abdicate your control to an automated process?
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No, I certainly agree with you about the automation point. What I was thinking about was a tool that could analyze the sound from a scene, and all of its unique characteristics, and then create a track of room tone that the sound editor could then use in the creative process, as though they had a genuine room tone track to work with. Not thinking about automating any of the editing process.

The problem with going back to record room tone (or using different room tone as others have suggested) is that once shooting the scene is complete and the set has been struck, you'll never really be able to recreate the same room a second time. Not only is every room different, but every day in every room can be different. Part of what makes up the sound of a room are the objects in the room, from furniture and props, to cast, crew, and equipment.

Nothing beats 30 seconds on set, but having a tool that could generate a room tone for each scene would be pretty helpful, although it's still down to the sound editor to make use of it.
 
In many cases, I don't think the exact filler is necessary - as we're really talking about the sound of silence, it's often a case that what gets your attention is the total absence of audio, and a crossfade to something, rather than nothing is often enough. You can't replace a church with a bedroom, but you can swap a church with a cathedral, and few will notice. I've still got the very first Yamaha digital sound processor - and that has the reverbs with L/R LR/RR outputs and all labelled with real locations where the reverb was sampled - I love Munich cathedral (which is the only one I can use because I lost the remote and the unit has no buttons) and running any low level input through it produces the result. You can recreate matching audio that can fill gaps without too much trouble - like Gary said - it's simply about stopping people noticing the absence of sound. Surely it's something that when shooting can be solved instantly by a simple call before cueing the actors - "Quiet please" pause.................... action?
 
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