Nila LEDs compared to HMIs

D

David Seow

Member
So I stumbled with this website:
http://www.nila.tv

They compare their Boxer model to a 800-1200w HMI and their Nila SL to a 2500w HMI. I know these kind of fixtures will never be the same as a real fresnel or par (multiple shadows, etc), but what I'm interested is in the raw output of light.

The benefits:
-lower heat
-lower power consumption (don't need to worry about blowing a 20a circuit)
-longer lasting (no need to be replacing bulbs)
-they seem to be pretty much indestructible...
-dimming from 10-100%

They are kind of expensive... but so are the equivalent HMIs. If they were good enough to be used in Quantum of Solace there must be something good going on... right?

Lets hear some opinions.
 
David Seow said:
They compare their Boxer model to a 800-1200w HMI and their Nila SL to a 2500w HMI. I know these kind of fixtures will never be the same as a real fresnel or par (multiple shadows, etc), but what I'm interested is in the raw output of light.
Click to expand...

According to the photometric data the output of their SL model is more equiv to ARRI 1200 HMI not a 2500 HMI, in fact it is slightly even less.

What is the price since you mentioned it?
 
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starcentral said:
According to the photometric data the output of their SL model is more equiv to 1200 HMI not a 2500 HMI, in fact it is slightly even less than a 1200HMI.

What is the price since you mentioned it?
Click to expand...

According to a price sheet I was sent by the people at Nila, the SL goes for $7,499 MSRP.
 
The Nila lights are extremely efficient and built like tanks. There's no restrike time like on an HMI and output decay is measured in tens of thousands of hours instead of HMIs hundreds of hours. The Nila's output very little heat or UV and draw very low power.

These are array fixtures as opposed to a bulb with a PAR or fresnel lens, but the lumens output it quite high.
 
David Seow said:
So I stumbled with this website:
http://www.nila.tv They compare their … Nila SL to a 2500w HMI. I know these kind of fixtures will never be the same as a real fresnel or par (multiple shadows, etc), but what I'm interested is in the raw output of light. … They are kind of expensive... but so are the equivalent HMIs. If they were good enough to be used in Quantum of Solace there must be something good going on... right? Lets hear some opinions.
Click to expand...

You have to take the claims made by LED manufacturers and their dealers with a grain of salt as most hype their products. They also place their products on shows at no cost for the publicity.

You have to dig into the photometrics for the light to get the real story. For example, if you look at the photometrics of the Nila SL it does not have an output comparable to a 2500W HMI – it doesn’t even compare to a 1200W HMI. A Nila SL, with 40 degree lenses, puts out 150 FC at 20’. An Arri 1200 Par with Flood Lens in spot position has a beam angle of 41 degree. At 20’ it puts out 637 FC or more than four times the amount of light. So on what basis are they comparing the Nila SL to a 2500W HMI – a 2500W HMI bounced into Beadboard?

Another claim you should take with a grain of salt is Mitch’s claim that “output decay is measured in tens of thousands of hours instead of HMIs hundreds of hours.” When a LED will burn 50’000 hours before it won’t light, I suppose you can measure its’ output decay in tens of thousands of hours. What Mitch doesn't say is that recent research on LEDs by the US Dept of Energy has revealed that their lumen output depreciates substantially and their color shifts appreciably over their life and much faster than manufacturers claim.

Since, for the most part individual LEDs are not easily replaced in an array, all you can do is throw out the fixture when its’ lumen output depreciates and its’ color output shifts to the point of being unusable for photographic purposes (which can happen after only a thousand hours with some fixtures according to the USDE study.) Granted, HMI bulbs don’t last as long, but you can replace them easily, so the light will put out fairly consistent lumens and color over it’s very long mechanical life.

As a matter of forum etiquette Mitch should state that his company Abel Cine is a Nila dealer (see http://www.abelcine.com/store/Nila-Lights/) and that he has a vested interest in promoting their products. As I said at the outset, you have to take the claims made by LED manufacturers and their dealers with a grain of salt as most hype their products.

Mike Morgan
 
Sorry if it wasn't clear that my company is a reseller for NILA. We also sell HMIs.

Other things that should be taken with a grain of salt:

- Authoritative statements on forums by people who have only just joined/
- Generalized statements as facts that imply specifics without providing evidence that said facts apply.
- Technical comparisons based on spec sheets but not actually physically testing devices side by side.


I've been a member of this forum for more than three years with hundreds of posts. Mike just joined and has four posts as I am typing this. I have thousands of posts on various other forums spanning nearly two decades. I put my contact info in my signature and I hope I'm not being immodest in noting that I believe that I m somewhat known in this community. There are several Mike Morgan's listed on IMDB in camera and lighting departments, but as Mike does not list his location I really have no idea who this person is.

Wanna hear the Quantum of Solace story? DP Roberto Schaefer saw some early prototypes of Nilas at CineGear Expo while he was in prep for the film. Knowing that he had an extensive car chase sequence that opened the film he was impressed with the high output and rugged modular design. He asked if the company could get a rather large quantity of units ready in time for the shoot, which was weeks, maybe a couple of months away (sorry, I can't recall exactly). Schaefer shot some tests and was satified. A chase car and I believe often a motorcycle was used with the Nilas mounted to illuminate Daniel Craig in the car as they drove through the tunnels in the Alps. They were also used elsewhere throughout the production. The production paid for the lights in full.

Different companies measure photometrics in different ways. How much drop off in the beam intensity when measuring brightness and size? X# of footcandles in the center but how many on the sides of the beam? How even is that beam? To really know how two lights compare, one needs to place them side by side and judge for one's self.

LED lights might not last 50,000 hours without fading in intensity or shifting in color. But they will last a hell of a lot longer than HMI bulbs will, by an order of magnitude.
 
Mitch, "Quantum of Solace"? Why use such cheesy film as an example? That's like saying have you seen Barney the dancing dinosaur? We helped to light it!

Nothing against the lights as they seem awesome just the choice of film to prove the point.
 
Mitch Gross said:
Other things that should be taken with a grain of salt:

- Authoritative statements on forums by people who have only just joined....

....I've been a member of this forum for more than three years with hundreds of posts. Mike just joined and has four posts as I am typing this. I have thousands of posts on various other forums spanning nearly two decades.
Click to expand...

Frankly who cares how many or few posts anyone on this or any other forum has. None of that makes you or anyone more right/wrong than the next person. In fact, you yourself are trying to be authoritative as you put it by stating you've been posting for decades...

I'm quite tired of people who think they know it all just because they've turned into dinosaurs - likely the same group who resisted digital image acquisition 15 years ago....

:D
 
Patryk_Rebisz said:
Mitch, "Quantum of Solace"? Why use such cheesy film as an example? That's like saying have you seen Barney the dancing dinosaur? We helped to light it!

Nothing against the lights as they seem awesome just the choice of film to prove the point.
Click to expand...

I guess the point was that they were used in a big budget production. If they had the money to destroy an Aston Martin DBS, I guess they had the option to use whichever light they wanted... but they went with the Nilas, so that´s a plus.

I really hope this lights deliver what they promise, and hope to get my hands on one to see for myself. LEDs have really helped simplify some of my small productions, they are definitely not a direct replacement for tungstens or kinos... but man are they useful.

The same way digital cameras came to simplify the acqusition/edit process, lighting technology should have a similar evolution that makes the process less cumbersome. These LEDs may or may not be that solution, time will tell.
 
Mitch Gross said:
Other things that should be taken with a grain of salt:

- Authoritative statements on forums by people who have only just joined/

I've been a member of this forum for more than three years with hundreds of posts. Mike just joined and has four posts as I am typing this. I have thousands of posts on various other forums spanning nearly two decades.
Click to expand...

I think if Steven Spielberg came on the forums, he'd start at 0 posts as well


Back to topic...

The Nila lights do look interesting, although for the price I'd prefer to just use up people's power with a trusty ol' arri hmi. I think the thing you're really paying for is using an extremely low amount of power compared to its output, which is nice.

Not sure about film work, but for corporate projects, tv and interviews. Or anything with a smaller crew (aka not enough hands to set up gennies) then it looks like an awesome product.
 
For anyone interested in seeing a Nila light in person we have them in our NY & LA showrooms. We sell a lot of other stuff as well and display a lot for people to come see.

Someone else had earlier mentione Quantum of Solace. There was a comment made so I felt sharing the accurate story was appropriate.
 
Mitch Gross said:
....Other things that should be taken with a grain of salt: Authoritative statements on forums by people who have only just joined.
I've been a member of this forum for more than three years with hundreds of posts. Mike just joined and has four posts as I am typing this. I have thousands of posts on various other forums spanning nearly two decades.... I hope I'm not being immodest in noting that I believe that I m somewhat known in this community.
Click to expand...

What does it matter if I’m new to these boards. What matters is that I have been working as a professional in the industry for 30 years. I wouldn’t boast about the number of your posts on other boards when, if I recall correctly, you have been called out by some very knowledgeable people for making similarly misleading comments hyping other LEDs that Abel Cine represents. To be specific, in a thread about the PRG Foton on the Cinematographer’s Mailing List (CML) you were called out by David Pringle, developer of the Softsun and Lightning Strikes; Guy Holt, author of what I consider to be the best article on LEDs available on the web; and David Amphlett, developer of the Gekko LED lights and winner of the IABM Award for Excellence in 2010. If anything your known as a shill for over priced LEDs that Abel Cine represents.

Mike Morgan
 
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I have been in disagreement with those gentlemen over a few specific technical issues. Some other members of that forum support my position as do some manufacturers. The gentlemen you mention also have some vested interests in other technology, so that should be included in the discussion. Lastly, I find it interesting that your posts and language closely resembles that of a particular person. That person has been banned from a few forums and has been known to post under false names.
 
Come one gentlemen, play nice and back on topic, before this get's out of hands.

Thanks, Frank
 
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