Newbie to 4K and Raw need questions answered

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offbeatbryce

Well-known member
What exactly is the difference between 4K and Raw? I have read that 4K gives better post production workflow such as cropping and zooming in post without resolution loss. But I'm not sure if it's best for me to get a camera that shoots in 4K or Raw. Is there also a camera that films in both 4K and prores simultaneously so I can edit in prores and then use the 4K files for final output? Again my main question is 4K vs Raw.
 
4K is a resolution.
The DCI 4K is 4096 × 2160 pixels, while the UHD is 3840 pixels × 2160 lines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution), which is twice the resolution of HD, which is 1920 pixels ×1080 lines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-definition_television).

RAW is the data coming from the sensor, unprocessed at all within the camera: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_image_format.

PRORES is a CODEC.

Choosing between 4K, RAW or PRORES depends on the requirements of the customer the shooting is being delivered to, on the editing, color grading and post production skills and facility - and on the budget.

Basically, shooting for youtube, or home screening, or corporate documentary, or TV distribution, or movies screen projection - plus the post production skills and facility - and the budget - are the major deciding factors.
 
Joshua_G said:
4K is a resolution.
The DCI 4K is 4096 × 2160 pixels, while the UHD is 3840 pixels × 2160 lines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution), which is twice the resolution of HD, which is 1920 pixels ×1080 lines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-definition_television).

RAW is the data coming from the sensor, unprocessed at all within the camera: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_image_format.

PRORES is a CODEC.

Choosing between 4K, RAW or PRORES depends on the requirements of the customer the shooting is being delivered to, on the editing, color grading and post production skills and facility - and on the budget.

Basically, shooting for youtube, or home screening, or corporate documentary, or TV distribution, or movies screen projection - plus the post production skills and facility - and the budget - are the major deciding factors.
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I would mostly be filming concerts, Music Videos, and documentaries. Without output to DVD and YouTube or Vimeo.
 
offbeatbryce said:
In your opinion what would be better? 4k compressed or RAW? My budget is somewhere between 1,000 to 3,000. Just don't know what would benefit me in the long run.
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What are you going to shoot? Where the end result will go? Do you have any camera and lense/s with video capability? Do you have an editing computer? Do you have any experience with editing and color grading?
 
offbeatbryce said:
I would mostly be filming concerts, Music Videos, and documentaries. Without output to DVD and YouTube or Vimeo.
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Where does the end results go (where are they being screened)? Do you have any camera and lense/s with video capability? Do you have an editing computer? Do you have any experience with editing and color grading?
 
Joshua_G said:
Where does the end results go (where are they being screened)? Do you have any camera and lense/s with video capability? Do you have an editing computer? Do you have any experience with editing and color grading?
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YouTube and DVD is the end result. Screened on TV's for stations, or shown on Projectors for film festivals. Of course I have cameras. I have a film business. I edit on an iMac that's a dual i7 core processor. I edit with Premiere Pro CC and color grade in Resolve. Not sure why I had to answer these questions as I just was asking about raw and 4K. But there ya go
 
Let's see if I can give you an idea of what RAW is:

You know how many high-def (HD or 2k) cameras can record something like "standard quality" and then also "high quality"? Mot cameras allow you to shoot still pictures that way too, right? I suppose many of the new 4k cameras also have a setting choice like this too.

So even though your camera is still HD (or UHD 4k) it can record in higher or lower quality, and the higher quality is usually a bit cleaner and has better color, and maybe it's sharper too. But of course the higher-quality settings cause the camera to generate much larger files. Mare data to store and deal with. LOTS more data.
RAW is like the 'ultimate' quality that camera can output.
All cameras under $3,000 do not even record in RAW. Only Blackmagic cameras do at that price range.

Well RAW also means the file sizes are HUGE, so you'll need more bigger memory cards, bigger hard drives and more of them, and a faster more powerful computer to work with the files.

RAW is hardcore stuff. It's a much more costly way to work. But it is capable of delivering some of the best captures of what you shot. It's a really big trade off, and it's best to have some experience with video recording, editing, and post-production before you try to work with RAW.

EDIT: Okay, just saw your post above mine. I don't know what cameras you have been shooting on up until now, but if you went RAW - imagine file sizes like TEN times bigger that what you're used to. It's insane. But it it's fun!
 
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DPStewart said:
Let's see if I can give you an idea of what RAW is:

You know how many high-def (HD or 2k) cameras can record something like "standard quality" and then also "high quality"? Mot cameras allow you to shoot still pictures that way too, right? I suppose many of the new 4k cameras also have a setting choice like this too.

So even though your camera is still HD (or UHD 4k) it can record in higher or lower quality, and the higher quality is usually a bit cleaner and has better color, and maybe it's sharper too. But of course the higher-quality settings cause the camera to generate much larger files. Mare data to store and deal with. LOTS more data.
RAW is like the 'ultimate' quality that camera can output.
All cameras under $3,000 do not even record in RAW. Only Blackmagic cameras do at that price range.

Well RAW also means the file sizes are HUGE, so you'll need more bigger memory cards, bigger hard drives and more of them, and a faster more powerful computer to work with the files.

RAW is hardcore stuff. It's a much more costly way to work. But it is capable of delivering some of the best captures of what you shot. It's a really big trade off, and it's best to have some experience with video recording, editing, and post-production before you try to work with RAW.

EDIT: Okay, just saw your post above mine. I don't know what cameras you have been shooting on up until now, but if you went RAW - imagine file sizes like TEN times bigger that what you're used to. It's insane. But it it's fun!
Click to expand...

Should I get raw though or just 4K compressed? I don't think I have the money to jump into full raw yet. I have just started my business and want to upgrade to 4K but still have the ability to manage files in a similar way I do now with HD.
 
offbeatbryce said:
Should I get raw though or just 4K compressed? I don't think I have the money to jump into full raw yet. I have just started my business and want to upgrade to 4K but still have the ability to manage files in a similar way I do now with HD.
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Yeah, stick with a good compressed codec 4k camera. A GH5, a new Sony 4k, they're all pretty darn awesome looking compared to HD.

As for RAW data size: In just HD (2K) on my Blackmagics, RAW eats up 256-GIG in one hour of video. 4K RAW is like a TERABYTE for one hour of video! Yikes!
 
offbeatbryce said:
YouTube and DVD is the end result. Screened on TV's for stations, or shown on Projectors for film festivals.
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DVD is SD, so even HD will have to be down-resed.
For TV stations HD is enough.
For film festivals, HD is probably fine, though you should ask the specific festivals for their technical requirements.

So I don't see why do you need 4K.


offbeatbryce said:
Of course I have cameras.
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What cameras? (The lenses you have will determine the best suited camera upgrade within your budget).


offbeatbryce said:
I have a film business. I edit on an iMac that's a dual i7 core processor. I edit with Premiere Pro CC and color grade in Resolve. Not sure why I had to answer these questions as I just was asking about raw and 4K. But there ya go
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Poor me, being only an amateur :(
 
DPStewart said:
Yeah, stick with a good compressed codec 4k camera. A GH5, a new Sony 4k, they're all pretty darn awesome looking compared to HD.

As for RAW data size: In just HD (2K) on my Blackmagics, RAW eats up 256-GIG in one hour of video. 4K RAW is like a TERABYTE for one hour of video! Yikes!
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yeah. I think it's best for now to not go with raw but I understand the benefits of it. Do the GH5 or sony 4K allow me to shoot multiple formats at once? I can do that with my Canon XA20 already
 
offbeatbryce said:
Should I get raw though or just 4K compressed? I don't think I have the money to jump into full raw yet. I have just started my business and want to upgrade to 4K but still have the ability to manage files in a similar way I do now with HD.
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Again, the cameras that you have, especially the lenses, will determine the best camera upgrade within your budget.
 
4K can be RAW. They are not mutually exclusive. 4K is to do with the quantity of pixels, RAW is related to the quality of pixels. 4K means the image is high resolution; RAW means the video has very flexible colour which is great if you want to do lots of colour manipulation.

If you don't know what RAW is, you probably won't get any benefit from it. In fact you might just make life harder for yourself if you shoot with RAW without understanding it fully. 4K will probably give you the most benefits it a simple shoot-edit-publish scenario.
 
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I was hoping to find a 4k camera that also shot in ProRes so that I didn't have to transcode after I shot and I could just edit ProRes and then link in premiere to the 4K footage. Anything like that available? I'm mainly looking for something similar to the Canon Xa25 with the XLR input ability that's 4K
 
I think the only Camera that meets your needs - 4K, Prores, XLR's & under $3K - is the Blackmagic BMPC 4K. It's a very different beast to your XA20/25 cams though. And you'll need a lot more than just the camera - think lenses, v-mount battery system, rigs, etc.

What are you shooting that requires Prores? It's very rare that productions absolutely need Prores if they don't also have the budget for serious cameras/operators. Plenty of professionals get by shooting highly compressed 8-bit 4:2:0 video to h.264 (such as AVCHD or XAVC). If you let us know what you plan to shoot and what sort of workflow you plan to have, we might be able to suggest cameras that are a better fit for your needs rather than trying to adhere to a strict limitation which might not actually be necessary!
 
There are two cameras I see fitting your bill Bryce.

1. The Sony PXWZ150 4K XDCAM. For just a tad over $3000 - great full service camera.
2. The Blackmagic Ursa Mini 4k for $3,000. It shoots ProRes instead of RAW any old time you want it too.

Both are larger form camera bodies with XLR ipnuts and built-in handles.
 
offbeatbryce said:
... Of course I have cameras. I have a film business. I edit on an iMac that's a dual i7 core processor. I edit with Premiere Pro CC and color grade in Resolve. Not sure why I had to answer these questions as I just was asking about raw and 4K. But there ya go
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I don't want to sound like I'm attacking you Bryce as this goes for way too many filmmakers. I'm sure you have a great eye for the moving picture and a talent for creating some good art, but...FFS! Learn just a little bit about how these things work! Ok, let me calm down here. I get that you're coming here for answers and not a lecture, but I've dealt with so many directors/producers/DPs that just wave their hand and yell out authoritatively "get me more 4k! We need more 4k over here! Add a couple 4k to this raw!" or some other current buzzword salad with no clue at all of what it means.
Before you spend a nickel on any of these cameras you should consider what you really need. Then figure out what fits the bill. Understanding what these things are is a good start. Don't just run out and buy a pile of 4k! 4k! 4k! and have no idea what it even is.
So, for the sake of education and to make up for my rant above, here you go:
4k is a resolution size. That means it has more pixels than HD and you can crop in on it if you're delivering in HD. It also means that it will take more storage space. Eventually all TV will be 4k, so not entirely a bad idea if you think this footage you're shooting today will have value in ten years.
Raw, just means that it's raw image data off the sensor. This means that you can adjust it's properties when you're processing the data on your computer. Why is this good? Think of it like getting raw ingredients, flour, sugar, etc. Process them one way and you have cookies, process them another way and you have bread. If you shoot with a baked in look and not raw, you'll just get cookies and it's hard to turn cookies into bread after the fact.
The downside to shooting raw? It takes up a lot of space to store all those bits and ingredients in the cupboard. It also takes a skilled baker some time to convert them into something delicious and good looking.
Hope that makes some sense and you have a better understanding of the principles behind it, and I also hope you weren't too offended by my taking offense at your lack of technical knowledge while working in a field that combines tech and art.
 
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