Newbie needs sign off on sound gear

D

DVXPDX

Member
I need to purchase a sound setup this week .I have searched these boards for weeks for advice and the result is what is in my "cart "currently...

( running into DVX of course)

SENN ME66 shotgun kit. ( includes Rycote softie )
additional foam for mic
Sound Devices Mixpre 2 channel Mic mixer.
K-TEK aluminum Boompole with cable. 2' -9'
2 PR sony 7506's


I know this is a pretty basic setup on the lower end..My budget is tight and do not have a lot left for equipment.I had planned on renting , but it does not look like an option at this point. My needs are int/ext dialog recording...If someone can tell me if this setup looks alright please do.

Thnks
 
Re: Newbie needs sign off on sound gear

Don't get the mix-pre and dump the me66 in favor of the Audio Technica 4073a... unless you want to pop your whole budget anyway... then I'd suggest one of a few $1K shotguns.

You don't need the Mix-pre.

Also what do you need an extra foam for the mic for? Both the me66 and the 4073a come with a foam windscreen and you may never use it anyway. The Softie works great indoors and out... some may advise you to just use the stock foam indoors... but again, both mics come with that.

I'm a big fan of Sennheiser's higher end mics... such as the 416 and up... but I stress this point over and OVER... for a NEW buyer, it's NUTS to not get the 4073a... if you budgeted for an me66.

The 4073a will sound better then the me64, me66, and me67... by a MILE... GOT IT? There is NO contest... I'm guessing you haven't heard the comparison clips?

The 4073a will work as good as the me64 as a hyper... and sound better.

The 4073a will work as good as the me66 as a short gun... and sound better.

The 4073a will work as good as the me67 as a LONG gun... and sound better.

The modularity of the me66 system gains you NOTHING over a better shotgun... the real insanity is that the price of the me66 was $350 when I bought mine. Now the me66 and 4073a are only $80 apart. $80 lousy bucks? Are you kidding me? Those two mics aren't even CLOSE in performance. When I bought my me66 the 4073a was a hundred dollars MORE then it is now... so it was $350 for an me66 and $650 for a 4073a... If I had any idea that the difference in these two mics was what it was... I'd have paid the $650! Now the 4073a is $530 and the me66 is $450... guess which one is the better deal? Hint: a poor mic went up and a great mic came down.

So save your money... only get one pair of 7506s... NO Mix-pre... NO additional foam... and DON'T get that me66.

Hell, if you had the money for all that I'd say you should just get 1 pair of 7506s, the K-Tek Avalon Aluminum, a Sanken CS3e, and a Softie for the Sanken... Oh yeah, plus you need a shockmount for ANY mic. K-Tek has a really sweet shockmount that you may want to check out... any questions?
 
Re: Newbie needs sign off on sound gear

I would definately want a portable mixer. What will the boom op use for riding levels? The level controls on the DVX are not for riding.

Look at the AKG Blue line modular system. all I have so far is the hyper cardioid and it sounds very nice. shotguns indoors are sometimes problematic.
 
Re: Newbie needs sign off on sound gear

I agree on the portable mixer if it fits in your budget. We could debate mics for days, I've used both in sound class, and the tone reporduction of AT is different then Sennheiser just as Shure is, I think its more a matter of taste. I like the ME66 and used it for most of my recordings on both DAT and camera. Really the only suggestion I'd have is try to pick up a back up mic, you maybe able to find a used mic for back up. Also if you can afford an additional blimp and mount you could have an X or Y set up. I'm curious why 2 headsets? You may find some better set ups then just headsets. When we shoot multiple camera events for instance we use Eartec Monarchs
http://www.eartec.com/

Good Luck
-Gopher

Good Luck
-Gopher
 
Re: Newbie needs sign off on sound gear

I disagree with Matt about dumping the mix pre. Next to the microphone, it is THE most important part. The 4073 is a good mic, but if you have to decide on getting only the 4073, or going with the me66 and mix pre, go with the me66 and mix pre. How you going to change levels if you need to? Doing it on the camera is next to impossible while shooting. I think the modularity is really valuable. You can switch out the capsules if you need. If you go interiors, and want a shorter, wider mic, you can get the ME64 capsule only.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, plugging directly into the camera without a mixer should be avoided at all costs, and only done as a last resort. I've looped a ton of dialogue for people who plugged directly in. Those who use a mixer, I rarely loop.

-Dave
 
Re: Newbie needs sign off on sound gear

wouldn't buy a me66 just so I could have a field mixer. The results with the DVX's pres and a decent mic are much better than the 66 on any mixer. And after hearing the comparisson between the AT4097 and Me66 Matt posted, it would be insane to go for the Sennheiser. Besides, if you are getting a decent field mixer anyway, you should have a couple hundred bucks spare to complement your mic purchases, and if the answer is negative, I suggest waiting for your next gig. The 66 will give you decent inteligible sound, but the DVX's pre's would do that too. If you want to add up to good sound, it's not a mixer you need but a better mic. And if you were to buy a mixer later, it could be refreshing knowing you have some great mics.

Obvious choice for me: trade the Senn for the AT.

What I'd do: ditch the mixer and a headphone, try to get a MKH-416 or a CS-3 (if possible) and use the DVX's onboard pres for the first gigs.

I acknowledge the importance of a field mixer, and pretty much hate having to monitor audio through the DVX's shitty phone out and some miniplug extensions.

I don't know what can riding the levels do aside from messing up with your backround noise. Why not just changing the mics distance from the sound sources? (Now that's a true honest question, not trying to wise ass anybody here...)
 
Re: Newbie needs sign off on sound gear

Again, I have to disagree. You do what you want. It's your money. You're either going to spend it on production, or in post looping.

One thing I forgot, if you do get a mixer, you will need a cable to go from the mixer to the camera. It's called a breakaway cable. It sends a left and right signal to the camera, and has a return to your mixer so you can hear what is going on on the camera. That way, the sound person can monitor what is going on.

-Dave
 
Re: Newbie needs sign off on sound gear

[quote author=Dave_Fisk link=board=audio;num=1094020503;start=0#6 date=09/01/04 at 12:11:53]Again, I have to disagree. You do what you want. It's your money. You're either going to spend it on production, or in post looping.

One thing I forgot, if you do get a mixer, you will need a cable to go from the mixer to the camera. It's called a breakaway cable. It sends a left and right signal to the camera, and has a return to your mixer so you can hear what is going on on the camera. That way, the sound person can monitor what is going on.

-Dave

[/quote]

Oh, sorry dave, haven't read your last one before posting. What exactly change from using the onboard pre's that make the sound unusable? Is it s/n ratio? I come from a country where sound hasn't been a great tradition, so it's good to know different/better standards over the world and how them apply.
 
Re: Newbie needs sign off on sound gear

I think you have to look at the work flow. If you have a sound man and a camera man, its going to be tough for the sound man to adjust sound levels on the camera, don't think the camera man will take to kindly to the sound man reaching in to adjust sound levels during shooting. So if you have seperate people the only way I could see it working is with a mixer. Now if you just have a boom person, then the camera man is responsible for sound levels as well, and thats tough. I've heard some really bad sound tracks and the looping thats had to be done to fix them. It's much better if you can a good clean sound track during the shoot. These are things I think you should decide in preproduction, me personnally I'd always opt for the ME66 and mixer. I find that a two mic setup in either an x or y pattern (also known as coincident micing) does much more for the dynamic of your sound then the type of mic.

-Gopher
 
Re: Newbie needs sign off on sound gear

Sound Devices makes nice stuff. All I'm saying is that I think it's nuts to buy an me66.

Like it or not... the "me" series is crap when compared to other mics in nearly the exact price range. The me64 isn't going to sound as good OR WORK AS GOOD as the 4073a indoors. The me66 and me67 won't sound as good or work as good as the 4073a outdoors.

One good mic always beats three crappy ones.

My point was that if you've got the cash to get EVERYTHING you listed then I'd shorten your list and get a world class mic.

If you REALLY will use a sound man a lot... an EXPERIENCED one (crucial point) then the mixer will be nice. A lot of times an inexperienced friend (playing sound man) will only F up your audio by trying to ride the levels. The DVX has good limiters and very clean sound. Unless you're really at the professional level of production I think your money would be better spent on the things which CAPTURE the sound... rather then DIRECT it.

Just to clarify the issue... the Mixpre will provide the sound man with a headphone out and volume knobs. He'll still be connected to the camera man via cable... as stated. If that guy never touches the levels that you decide on ahead of time... then the Mixpre gained you nothing more then about 2db of improved noise floor. So there's your $665 at work... but like I said, if you NEED to use a real sound man... then you pretty much HAVE to have a mixer. So if you're at that level then I'm sorry to cloud the issue... but again... if you're at that level and you choose an me66? Man I don't even know what to say? If I hired somebody to do a job for me and I saw an me66 come out of their bag I'd instantly get a knot in my stomach thinking, "this guy obviously has NO experience with mics".

3 things told me you weren't at that level yet. The first was having to buy a total sound package, the second was the me66 choice, and the third was the 2 pairs of headphones... because if you're using a professional sound man then you don't give a single thought to what he's doing... and you don't need phones to monitor the sound that the sound man is monitoring. If all this was an incorrect assumption then I sincerely appologize... otherwise I stand by my initial recommendations.

Oh yeah, and once again you DON'T need an extra foam, but you DO need a good shockmount.
 
Re: Newbie needs sign off on sound gear

There are definitely better mics for under $1000, and I keep hearing more and more good things about the Audio Technica 4073.

I think one big thing that can learned from all of this discussion is to not under budget for your sound equipment.

9 times out of 10 that someone comes in to the shop to buy a "complete" sound package from me, expects to maybe spend $500 on everything. Once I tell them that gets them an OK mic only, their eyes get really big. I then ask, "how much did you spend on your camera?".

-Dave
 
Re: Newbie needs sign off on sound gear

[quote author=Matt in STL link=board=audio;num=1094020503;start=0#9 date=09/01/04 at 13:56:06]

"3 things told me you weren't at that level yet. The first was having to buy a total sound package, the second was the me66 choice, and the third was the 2 pairs of headphones...
.[/quote]

The fourth should have been that I titled my post "newbie" ...listen man, I really appreciate your (and everybodys) input and am trying to follow what you are saying ...all I am asking for is someone with some experience to share with me their thoughts on getting some good clean sound for my film projects. I can appreciate your position on the ME66....maybe my best bet is to just buy a higher quality mic and plug it directly in to the camera...but again, in my inexpereince I have turned to this forum and based my percieved need of a mixer on posts by people with more experience than myself...the second set of headphones was to allow me to monitor my actors in more detail through the mic in addition to the sound person. The reason I was going to order foam was because I did not know it came with the ME66..I had rented that mic previously and did not see any foam that came with it..I also was under the impression that that ME66 kit came with a shockmount...again I am inexperienced and apologize. I have found this forum to be an extremely valuable resource for someone new to the DVX..people have been incredibly helpful and patient in explaining things....unfortunately I am more confused at this point then before.
 
Re: Newbie needs sign off on sound gear

just one tought about the futer of your work , the mixpre is very limitting mixer , its not bad as something to start up but i see it only as sub mixer fo r someone who already ownes big one , if you considering continiu making films in feutr you would probably find yourself using more then 1 mike , probably 2 or 3 in documentary and even on fiction
my sogestion is invest in more versativ tool as 302 or not invest at all and rent , the mix pre has very limiting monitoring section ,line outs only , no ms matrix , no line inputs
for better monitoring from the camera to the mixer use rca outs which have much cleaner signal then the headphones out
if you are gong to create audio snake make sure that you adding aditional
feemale mini pl socket in paralel to mini pl male , then use short pl mini to 2 rca right angle adapter to feed the return from the rca sockets .
in perfect world where the acters are doing exicly the same on rehersal and during the shot with 1 mike situation you probably can run directly to the camera since it does have exelent pres for it price , but since we are working with people and not machines there is a grate importence to ride the right level during the shot without touch the camera or disterb you shooting critical scene .


the me 66 is really not so good mike , its better then nothing but the aditional 60 -70$ would bring you the AUDIO TECHNICA -exelent mike for the price
 
Re: Newbie needs sign off on sound gear

Sorry for the feel of my post DVXPDX... yeah the Newbie thing seems really obvious now... I was in more of a debate about the me66 and Mixpre and lost focus.

I can say this with absolute certainty. The 4073a, Softie for the 4073a, K-Tek shockmount for the 4073a, K-Tek pole, and a pair of 7506 headphones... will be money well spent. Also be sure to get a couple different length XLR cables. I have several from 1' to 50'... My most commonly used lengths are 3' and 25'. Starquad is the BEST and it's not much more then regular cable. If it seems really through the roof then check around...

Get all that stuff and play with it for a few days. You'll figure out what else you want pretty quick and all this stuff is needed anyway... even if you did all the work by yourself OR with a soundguy. You may even find that this will be enough to do anything you want...

The best price on the 4073a is $530 from B&H. Coffey Sound has your pole for $225. Mvpaudio sells the 7506 for $92 (but with an internet newsletter they were $82). The best price for the Softie is Trew at $132.

Since I listed the best price for EACH item you should still get the lowest total by getting everything from ONE place... for price that ends up being B&H a lot of times... but I'd FIRST give Coffey or Trew a crack at it. If they are even close then you'd do yourself a favor to begin a relationship with a PRO outlet rather then a "department store"... nobody in B&H knows anything about this stuff... but at Coffey and Trew they know EVERYTHING about it AND they actually USE it. A lot of times they're even the same total price.
 
Re: Newbie needs sign off on sound gear

I pretty much agree with everything Matt just said.



I think if you're doing projects just to get started, and learn....then the setup Matt suggested is great to get you started. It's all about learning at this point. If you want to use a mixer, you can always rent one for a few days, if you can't buy one.

-Dave
 
Re: Newbie needs sign off on sound gear

Have you ever heard of Oktava's??? Kidding, Matt is right, BUY from Trew, Coffey, Turner, Location Sound, etc..
B&H is a great place to See things if your in NYC, but would not buy from them a bit overpriced and they don;t know **** about what they sell, it's like working at best buy, one day you sell a toaster the next day a plasma TV..

Just my 2c
 
Re: Newbie needs sign off on sound gear

I disagree with your slam at B & H Photo. As a longtime customer, their prices are often more than reasonable and significantly less than many online places, and I've talked technical issues with the staff in their audio and lighting departments. And comparing them to Best Buy makes no sense because B & H sticks with their main business only, which means no toasters.

Are you sure you were on thr right block? ::)
 
Re: Newbie needs sign off on sound gear

I disagree as well. Though BH treats its customers a little "differently," they do know their stuff. I was in NY not too long ago and they were able to help me out with many technical questions. Their prices are pretty good for the most part as well.

BTW why dont you guys register?
 
Re: Newbie needs sign off on sound gear

B&H isn't the cheapest on most stuff, but they are on some...and in the end, they're compeditive on most everything.

I've gotten some of the worst service there and also some of the best...but then again, this is all in person and never on the phone. THey have different people staffing the lines then they do staffing the stores...and even then it depends what department you're in as to what kind of service of knowledge you get.

It's very hit or miss sometimes, but I definatly understand the toaster analogy. From my experience, less then half the personel in the store are specialized in their knowledge (pro audio, pro cameras, etc.).

The rest are just there for a check...thus telescopes, video projectors, RCA cables, or illford warmtone fiber paper packs, they don't know anything about any of it other then what's in stock. That being said, if you get one of those guys who doesn't know anything, you usually only have to walk five feet away to find someone who does know everything.
 
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