Newbie needs help with designing and building/purchasing cool flouro 5 point setup

Took a look at it. Can dig in later.

What I have been able to read hasn't inspired confidence in the screw base approach, so looking into making homemade kinos.

Really spotty info though about the ballast particulars. Some say some of the home depot fixtures are fine as are, others say get a good HF ballast, but I'm looking for something more specific. If it really comes down to the bulb and the ballast, then I'd like to find the highest quality ballasts possible, and use real kino tubes unless thre really is no difference to a particular other brand.

That being said, anyone got any real specific info about the ballasts. More than gettting something with electronic ballast at high frequency?

Oh, and it looks like I'll be going the gh2 route, btw... so ghetto all the way with change left in my pocket... some of which can go into a better lighting/greenscreen situation.
 
Took a closer look at pcam. Interesting stuff that I'll have to learn more about, but for right now, I've got people chomping at the bit for me to get first video set up... which is just a camera on a tripod shooting the entire stage... from start to finish.

Basically, right now, what I need to get figured out is how far back the camera should be (gh2 with standard lens), some basic settings for the camera (for which I'm watching a few tutorials), but I'm thinking the first and foremost thing is to figure out the total lighting, and how to accomplish it. I must say that after a few days of digging, a couple trips to electrical supply houses, and scouring the big box places for fixtures that can be gutted, I'm starting to be more and more drawn to abandoning diy and getting these "chinos"

http://fancierstudio.com/lenses/165...flo-panel-flo-light-video-lighting-fl655.html

Three sets of two in a sturdy bank that's already designed to be mounted on a light stand.

Only problem is... I can't seem to get an answer from anyone as to EXACTLY what the ballast is being used. Also, there seem to be several companies selling them with zero disclosure as to the actual bulbs.

I just wish I could dig up some real solid info to know whether the ballasts are ok, and whether I'd need to order kino or some other tubes.

There's also someone selling something that looks very similar with osram bulbs.

Anyway, I was thinking these would be good for the key, fill, and the two side lights that light the screen from the side... and then find a way to rig a truss/shop lights with t8 kinos for the back/hair light.

Does that sound about right? Each time I look at a different bulb like these vs the t8's, the total light output changes, so I'm having trouble nailing the exact amount I need.

I'm wrestling a bit too with the idea of mixed bulbs. (kino t8's here, mystery brand biax there...) Supposedly all "high cri" and full spectrum and all, but still... Seems to me I might be far better off using all the exact same bulb for each fixture to make sure that my white balance is correct all around.

Any thoughts?
 
greg sage said:
Took a closer look at pcam. Interesting stuff that I'll have to learn more about, but for right now, I've got people chomping at the bit for me to get first video set up... which is just a camera on a tripod shooting the entire stage... from start to finish.
Click to expand...

The unfortunate thing is some of these 'calculations' are ugly... and these tools make them far less ugly.

In order to find out what focal length you need, what distance you need to set the camera at, you at least need to know how many feet you want to have 'in the shot' at the subject distance.

So, as I recall your greenscreen was 15 feet wide.

With my Tolland app for my iPhone, I calculate that for a 25mm lens on the GH1/GH2 using the 14-140 zoom, you will have the following.

Camera distance to Subject: 22 feet
Width of Camera View: 15 feet
Height of Camera View: 8 feet.

Using the 14mm setting gives:

Camera to Subject: 12 feet
Width of Camera View: 15 feet
Height of Camera View: 8 feet.

Now, I've not gone out and setup my camera to verify that the tool does in fact calculate these things out correctly... perhaps I'll have time tomorrow... it is one of the things I've been meaning to do...
 
j1clark@ucsd.edu said:
The unfortunate thing is some of these 'calculations' are ugly... and these tools make them far less ugly.

In order to find out what focal length you need, what distance you need to set the camera at, you at least need to know how many feet you want to have 'in the shot' at the subject distance.

So, as I recall your greenscreen was 15 feet wide.

With my Tolland app for my iPhone, I calculate that for a 25mm lens on the GH1/GH2 using the 14-140 zoom, you will have the following.

Camera distance to Subject: 22 feet
Width of Camera View: 15 feet
Height of Camera View: 8 feet.

Using the 14mm setting gives:

Camera to Subject: 12 feet
Width of Camera View: 15 feet
Height of Camera View: 8 feet.

Now, I've not gone out and setup my camera to verify that the tool does in fact calculate these things out correctly... perhaps I'll have time tomorrow... it is one of the things I've been meaning to do...
Click to expand...


Thx. I don't mean to belittle the importance of getting the calc's right by any means... just mentioning that this first vid is about as simple as it gets. It's actually a spoof on another youtube sensation that was all shot with just one wide tripod shot, so it doesn't get much simpler.

Also, I'm somewhat limited by the space. I don't HAVE 22 feet, so it's going to have to be in the sub 18 foot range from the camera to the screen (and the actors are 6 feet forward from the screen)

That's just the reality of my space. I can get free use if I want of a larger space, but it would be much preferable if workable to just do it in my home as I don't have to reset and tear down each half day if I don't get it all done.



Anyway, want to get the lighting settled in the next couple of days so I can have everything here in a week or so.

I've asked in a few places and done as much digging as I can do, and I'm just not getting any difinitive answers about the simplest and cheapest solution which would be the multi cfl spiral softboxes (MUCH cheaper than other options)

If they really aren't up to snuff, then I'm leaning towards at least a couple of the tube type "chinos" I linked to previously... and then some homemade banks with kino tubes.

What I need to know first, though, is what kind of light output I need. I was originally thinking something like 5 point setup where each is a 4'x4' bank of 6 tubes. With the screen at 15' wide, though, I 'm thinking that the back/hairlight should be something more like a long strip ... like maybe 12' wide on a truss of some sort so that it's even across the whole stage. That way, they can just be pointed down... 3 feet from the screen, and 3 feet from the talent's backmost point so they'll do the hair/backlight thing and simultaneously smooth out the lighting on the screen since the side lights are now 15' apart.

Any thoughts?

A decent light calc I should be looking at that deals with greenscreen situations?

I'm figuring if I can get a rough calc, and then just make sure each of my points has AT LEAST enough output to handle it, then I can always turn off this or that tube to settle into the sweetspot.... or add a diffusion layer to step it down a notch since I just want super smooth even lighting everywhere anyway.
 
Camera is ordered and on it's way. GH2 with 14-140 lens, so lots of flexability.

Has anyone here ever dealt with facnierstudio? I have called three times during business hours and sent two emails over past week with zero response.

Anyway, since I'm looking at fixtures where individual lamps can be turned on/off, just looking for rough guidelines to let me get some lights ordered. If I do the kino type t5's in 6 bank fixtures with nano reflectors per bulb, am I ok with two of them for key and fill, 2 for the screen, and one for hairlight? Those have the barndoors.

Basically, I see lots of different ways people are doing greenscreen lighting, and I need to figure out first the overall approach. Do I want softboxes for key, fill, then more focussed for hairlight, and barndoors for 2 screen lights? With a greeenscreen that large, I'm thinking I should have more than one hairlight... maybe one very long fixture along the back 3 feet out or so that does hair and also helps light screen evenly.


Basically, I want to do with all fluoros, but there are so many options, and different kits take different approaches.

Overall, if you were going to light a 16 foot wide full body greenscreen (including floor) with fluoros, with the intention of getting very soft lighting, what type of fixtures would you use, and how many/ what wattage per? 5 points total? 7? Is more helping to soften overall? Should the side ones for the screen just be 8' tall so they cover the whole screen evenly? You get the idea. Trying to get the big picture of what I want accomplished first so I can then dig into the details and get this stuff ordered this week. Camera's already on it's way. Greenscreen is here, and building frame.

thx.
 
one of the biggest problems here is you're trying to do heart surgery before youve finished med school. and you're trying to do it on a community college budget.
you're filling your head with all kinds of specs without any real knowledge as to how any of it actually works...

my first greenscreen (like 13 years ago) was just a hand on a 4x4 sheet of bright green posterboard with some home depot lights. and i phoqued it up royally. but i learned why. and each time from then on i learned and got better.

If I do the kino type t5's in 6 bank fixtures with nano reflectors per bulb, am I ok with two of them for key and fill, 2 for the screen
Click to expand...
i wouldnt think so. when im doing a simple 10x010 green from knees up. i use two 4' 4banks for the screen alone. and you're wanting to do nearly 2x that width with only 50% more bulb. not on a 16' set with more than one person and DEFINITELY not with that light-starved 14-140 lumix lens.

not to be mean. but from what i'm reading, you're biting off way more than you can chew and you may wind up just getting yourself in trouble.
one of the many fundamental issues im seeing with your plan is you expect a single fluro (even a 6bank) to be an effective hairlight for a 16' set
and for that width, for an even background, you almost need a third overhead in the middle, suspended from the ceiling - or from a meaty-ass stand...
 
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wgzn said:
one of the biggest problems here is you're trying to do heart surgery before youve finished med school. and you're trying to do it on a community college budget.
you're filling your head with all kinds of specs without any real knowledge as to how any of it actually works...

my first greenscreen (like 13 years ago) was just a hand on a 4x4 sheet of bright green posterboard with some home depot lights. and i phoqued it up royally. but i learned why. and each time from then on i learned and got better.


i wouldnt think so. when im doing a simple 10x010 green from knees up. i use two 4' 4banks for the screen alone. and you're wanting to do nearly 2x that width with only 50% more bulb. not on a 16' set with more than one person and DEFINITELY not with that light-starved 14-140 lumix lens.

not to be mean. but from what i'm reading, you're biting off way more than you can chew and you may wind up just getting yourself in trouble.
one of the many fundamental issues im seeing with your plan is you expect a single fluro (even a 6bank) to be an effective hairlight for a 16' set
and for that width, for an even background, you almost need a third overhead in the middle, suspended from the ceiling - or from a meaty-ass stand...
Click to expand...

Point taken, but this project probably doesn't even rank in the top 10 as far as complexity or learning curve for projects I've taken on. That's not to say I don't have much to learn... just that I'm not phased by it.

Thx for the info. Now we're getting somewhere. Definitely not thinking one hairlight would be ok. Was wondering whether a couple of banks on booms angled slightly inward was enough, or whether I should rig a truss so I can essentially do a 12' long bank with 3 sets of 2 bulbs each running out 3' from the screen (halfway between the screen and the talent.

I haven't heard anyone talking about doing this, so I'm wondering... it would seem that if I just run a shoplight type fixture with a general downward reflector, but no baffles, and let it just hang down, then it would both hit the talent from above and behind AND help to light the screen since the screen lights are so far apart. Does that part seem decent? Running a 2 bulb wide 12' run 3' out from the screen?

I'm also thinking that I should probably stack 4' banks on top of eachother for the sides so they're 8' tall... to more evenly cover the screen. Not sure how many bulbs each should have, though.

At this point, it's looking like the simplest and second cheapest (hard to beat the price of those spiral cfl chinese softboxes) solution might be to get a bunch of cheap 2 bulb 4' t12 fixtures for $10 each, replace the ballasts with good dual t8 ballasts for $20 each, put in some nano reflectors, and put in kino tubes. They turn on/off in sets of 2, and I can rig them so they can be linked together. They won't have barn doors or diffusers, but I'm not sure I need those for most of the lighting here. Total cost with bulbs is $90 per 2 lamp fixture including actual kino t8 tubes. I like the idea of doing them all the same and being able to link them in banks as it makes it flexible to add more here, take some from there, etc... kind of like the rollolight system or whatever it's called. Same idea.

Anyway, that's the diy side, and I'm trying to focus here on the big picture of what general type of fixture, and how much lighting is needed.


So... I'll toss out a rough idea here, and anyone with experience doing large screens like this, feel free to say more or less for any part of it.

Assuming each fixture is 2 4' kino t8 tubes, what about:


Hairlight / backlight/ screen top light: 3 fixtures (6 bulbs) in a 12' long bank end to end. (also helping to light screen)

Screen side lights: 2 fixtures (4 bulbs) stacked 8' tall per side (8 bulbs total)

Key and fill 4 fixtures (8 bulbs) each


So... that means a total of 15 fixuteres which is 30 kino t-8's.

That's what I was thinking last night, anyway. Sounds from the above description, though, like that may be a bit on the lean side? How would you adjust the various points? If I keep it modular like this and build a few extras, it's easy enough to add a bit here or there as needed.
 
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My advice... Learn to walk before you fly.

Before you get into a huff trying to light multiple subjects at once on a large green screen, learn to light a single subject.

After all, it's green screen work. Each subject can be shot single and then keyed into your final shot.
 
I will. There are a number of other people involved who are chomping at the bit to move forward, so time is a factor.

But yes... I am going to do a battery of tests before we go live.... and those tests will be done with the assistance of a professional videographer, and a professional LD buddy of mine (who hasn't done much greenscreen work, but teaches lighting for cinema, etc) I may not have done this stuff personally before, but I've been around it forever. I've got access to a pro editing system, have friends who know how to use it, etc.

Light meters, test cards, the whole 9 yards. All of that will be ironed out before we involve the talent. I've already got the screen.

Right now, I'm just trying to put the basic rig together to make the testing possible.
 
David W. Jones said:
My advice... Learn to walk before you fly.

Before you get into a huff trying to light multiple subjects at once on a large green screen, learn to light a single subject.

After all, it's green screen work. Each subject can be shot single and then keyed into your final shot.
Click to expand...

Just to give an example of what David mentions here:


All shots, except the "monitor" shots which are stock footage, were shot with one subject in frame and keyed together.

This was my first greenscreen job, and I almost messed it up, due to the fact that I didn't know exactly how the lights worked and how much luminescence they have :S

Anyways, this was done on a 6m x 4m cloth greenscreen (wrinkly as hell and we had no iron...). We had 2 or 3 flos up top with green tubes, one 4ft 4 bank flo for key, one for fill and 2 tungsten for rim light. Had I known how greenscreens work I would have ordered more lamps and made the screen more even for the editor so he'd have an easier time keying out the subjects, rotoscoping is a b****. But in the end it all worked out.
 
Ay, there's the rub.

Been trying to figure out the luminance, but it's nearly a fool's errand for these prosumer fluoro rigs. They quote everything in misleading terms to begin with, then I read reviews that say they aren't drawing the wattage they claim, then there's the bit about most of the light coming from the side... then how much is lost on reflectance, and upon diffusion...

I'd say it's near pointless for me to even try to calculate all that given I could be off by 50% or more at each of several points along the way.

I had a talk with lighting buddy of mine yesterday, and he basically said not to worry too much about the bulbs, spikes, etc. Just get daylight bulbs, make sure the ballast is decent enough to avoid flicker, and make sure you're using all the same bulb. Essentially, he's saying that there's bound to be issues, but so long as it's the exact same light everywhere, it should be easy enough to deal with between white balancing, color correcting, etc... and so long as I get enough light on the screen, the key won't be a problem.

So, that brings up two questions. First, you mention using fluoros everywhere except tungsten for backlight... is there some well established theory there about making the outline of the subjects stand out, or that's just the harder source you had? Is that necessarily better than more of the same matvched fluoro light for back/hair?

Second... well, I'm already "over budget" in the cost of fancy lens, greenscreen, and a few other things, so I'm none too happy to see the totals adding up to multiple 5 figures for sufficient lighting with even the cheapest "chinos" I can find.

Reluctantly giving strong consideration to using spirals. So, if anyone has something informed to say about them vs the tubes then please, by all means, speak up before I buy the trigger since the fixtures will blow my whole budget and can't be swapped for tubes. If I do go that route (ordered within next couple of days), the one issue everyone seems to agree on is that their light output is low compared to other types. So, anyone have enough experience with these things to be able to throw out a ballpark figure for the light output of one of these things?

I'm thinking the ones with 5 separate switches give the most control, so checking today to see if I can get larger softbox cover and use 5 85 watters in them. So.. 5 of these in a softbox:

http://www.cowboystudio.com/product/c16/p16-44.php
(trying to figure output per fixture... link shows kit with 3 identical fixtures)

I figure so long as I have enough to overlight things a bit, I'll have tons of control since each bulb can be turned on or off, so easy to dial in.

Haven't gotten any feedback yet either on whether my idea of putting a bank of lights along the top of the screen but out 3 feet (halfway between screen and talent area) to serve as both screen lighting and hair/backlight is any good. If I did it all with these kits, I'm thinking it would be 3 of them along the top, one on each side... then one kit for key, one for fill. Just need to have some way to figure the output of these things, and they're no help at all. They actually told me they'd never heard of a ballast before, and had no clue what bulbs they were using in their most expensive fluoro fixtures where half the cost of the unit is the bulbs. Let's just say I'm less than confident with any figure they could provide for candle power.

edit: btw... had my monitors off when I first saw the video. I had to laugh as I recently completed a modern dance type track that includes a vibrophone solo... kind of a similar vibe in many ways. Nothing new under the sun, I guess.
 
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